Friday Facts #129 - The late game

[pib]

On the research problem.
Instead of having infinite levels of research just have one level that goes on infinitely and provides a buff like a module for the entire factory.

I really think that some of the blue requirements should be split off and given to purple science. It's kind of cheap for the last science pack to only need one assembler while everything good goes to blue.

I like both of these ideas. I think bobucles may have been a little unclear; if so - my interpretation is that not only does 1 purple assembler create science packs very quickly compared to blue, but that it takes plastic, batteries, red chips, etc all to make blue science, and purple is just alien artifacts. Make purple's recipe something like processed alien artifact (get 10 per alien artifact) + blue chip + battery, and make blue science a fast inserter*, red chip and steel. Make blue science less demanding and purple science more so.

* (I think smart inserters are being removed and merged with fast inserters)

[ikiris]

This looks awesome. Very much looking forward to these changes in the base game.

[Proxy]

for the Ores i thought of a Mekanism Tier-Base processing.
it would actually work 1:1 like in the Mod when added to Factorio. xD
as you Research more you Unlock more machines to Process your Ores better and better...

Just Imagine this is Factorio

[piratelord]

For a high tier mining machine that has a bigger mining radius, how about a factorio version of this beast?

Mining madness

[Kewlhotrod]

Actually i think the opposite is true, with the fluid tanker we could remove the barrels from the game

but what if I want to transfer my oil overseas?

[Krayt]

Yes that definitely would be cool. I have seen some rotary excavator like this in a mods page. But I think there is some restriction concernig the dimensions of images about 2048 times 2048 pixel.

[Weresmilodon]

Resource sinks

First off, YES, we need a solid resource sink in the end of the game. Right now, i feel like no such thing exists, all the ones that could function activate too little of your factory. Research won't do it, same as rockets doesn't do it.

Instead, i suggest a new item of some sort, hideously expensive/wasteful, that can autolaunch into space when placed into the Rocket Silo. The main point of it would be to activate as much of your factory as possible, so it would need a large range of late-tier items. Construction materials like the rocket, assembler, roboport, drones, radar, turrets(?), maybe some power gen (solar, accumulator), whatever else might be suitable for the purpose.

This is not meant to be in any way useful, it exists for the sole purpose of keeping most of your factory running near constantly.

Above all else, please, do not make it require more nonsensical genocide runs. That's not what the game is about. I hope it never really will. (Still holding out hope for alien artifacts being placeholder until more things are implemented)

Mining

In regards to mining, i have no real opinion beyond 'It will be nice to have some more high tier equipment'. Instead, I'll present an old idea I've had. Perhaps there can be some overlap, should something come of it.

In the middle of ore fields would be an 'rough' area, where nothing could be built, and regular mining drills could not reach. This would be proportional to the size of the field itself.

To mine it, you would need a new structure, Mining Drone Centre, or whatever you want to call it. It would need to be staffed by Mining Drones. These would not be flying, but instead built to handle difficult terrain, tight passages, and so on. They would go out of the MDC into any rough area in range, mine, and return to unload and recharge.

Regarding ore, I've never considered it before, but now that's it's been brought up, perhaps all the ore brought by the drones would be dirty. Then a long (well, somewhat...), powerhungry process might turn it into more plates then an equal amount of clean ore. This would encourage upgrading old mines as well, and actually going through with the cleaning process.

From the beginning, I've imagined them as spider drones, initially thinking of the Spider Drone from Starcraft and Terror Drone of Red Alert 2. I was understandably exited when you started hinting about a spider something coming. It turned out to be a vehicle, good on it's own, but not what i hoped for. But maybe, if you can build a Spider Tank, you could also downsize it and install a Drone AI Core in it, and then use it for mining. One can hope.

[sekanz]

I have to say that i strongly agree with all the changes mentioned. I think they will bring some much needed balance to the end game as well as getting rid of the tediousness of mine babysitting, especially in a game about automation.

[Krayt]

[...]
Mining

In regards to mining, i have no real opinion beyond 'It will be nice to have some more high tier equipment'. Instead, I'll present an old idea I've had. Perhaps there can be some overlap, should something come of it.

In the middle of ore fields would be an 'rough' area, where nothing could be built, and regular mining drills could not reach. This would be proportional to the size of the field itself.

To mine it, you would need a new structure, Mining Drone Centre, or whatever you want to call it. It would need to be staffed by Mining Drones. These would not be flying, but instead built to handle difficult terrain, tight passages, and so on. They would go out of the MDC into any rough area in range, mine, and return to unload and recharge.

[...]

I think rough terrain doesn't fit into a game where at the moment are no height differences or roughness differences at all. Rather there could be build a mining site which can reach Ore and other resources deep underground. So every resource could have to values - one surface deposit value and one underground deposit value.

[Weresmilodon]

[...]
Mining

In regards to mining, i have no real opinion beyond 'It will be nice to have some more high tier equipment'. Instead, I'll present an old idea I've had. Perhaps there can be some overlap, should something come of it.

In the middle of ore fields would be an 'rough' area, where nothing could be built, and regular mining drills could not reach. This would be proportional to the size of the field itself.

To mine it, you would need a new structure, Mining Drone Centre, or whatever you want to call it. It would need to be staffed by Mining Drones. These would not be flying, but instead built to handle difficult terrain, tight passages, and so on. They would go out of the MDC into any rough area in range, mine, and return to unload and recharge.

[...]

I think rough terrain doesn't fit into a game where at the moment are no height differences or roughness differences at all. Rather there could be build a mining site which can reach Ore and other resources deep underground. So every resource could have to values - one surface deposit value and one underground deposit value.

Well, i imagine the rough terrain going downwards more then up, but the main point of it being rough would be as a terrain obstruction, like trees, rocks and water, to prevent building on top of it. But it would be a mining site, with either a set value of ore, or a decreasing but essentially endless number, simulating the drones mining and finding less and less easily accessible ore.

[Nioxic]

Sounds good!

I'm personally annoyed by the point in the game were you automate green science (well, and red as well)

I feel like it's stupid to continue building until i've researched all the red / green science... which is pretty fast, since you can just build a ton of science labs and assembly plants. i don't know if it's just me though, but i basically just hit research X - tab out browse the forums or reddit for a bit, tab back in, click the next research ect. this doesn't really that take long with 10-20 labs

This is a shame. i'd prefer if there was a reason to research X over Y.

for me, automating green science means that i'll be semi-afk from the game for 20-45 minutes depending on the amount of labs i build.

I know it's my own choice - but people will always choose the most optimal way of playing (not counting challenges ect)

I'd love if it either required a bit more resources or something, or perhaps add a science pack in between the green and the blue

[ssilk]

More item by with longer lasting mining needs of course a bigger resource sink. With electronic circuits and other stuff. And that needs of course also a bigger transportation with bigger wagons. Bigger wagons can transport more and also take more time to load/unload.

All that changes make sense.

But: I'm not sure, if I really like such big wagons. Because the number of stacks in the wagon is yet already difficult to handle, if you want to use filters.
I see for example a problem if you want to fill such a wagon with many different items (think for a supply wagon).

So I'm not sure, if simply making wagons bigger is such a good idea. And I want to throw in an alternative idea: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19343 Boxing / Packaging / Container / Cargobox : Pre-Filling
Of course not in that form. I think that could work a bit like the modular armour....

[Tev]

Hi Factorio Devs,

Since you're considering making a train wagon designed for fluids, it would make as much sense to also allow any fluid to be put inside a baril. There may not be a real "need" for it, but since any liquid can be put in pipes and storage tanks, they should also get the chance to be put in barrels.

Actually i think the opposite is true, with the fluid tanker we could remove the barrels from the game

Oh god no, that might be enough to stop even me from playing factorio . . . or at least sticking with old versions. Pipes in current form are insane over any serious distance, and oil spot generation is just random all over the place . . . without fixing world generation AND cumbersome piping (that seems impossible) barrels are only thing enabling easy oil mining . . . fluid wagons don't remove the need for crazy manual tedious pipe placing.

Ok enough ranting, I was just scared for a moment someone might seriously consider removing barrels from the game.

[Koub]

Well all this sounds very promising. I remember a post of me where I listed some ressource sink / small buffs ... [Searching]
There are two of them in fact :
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10052&p=77929#p77929
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18118&p=121350#p121350
I think it could be a good basis to what could be done as useful ressource sink.

I must admit almost everything in this FFF is appealing to me. Hope to see this ingame some time.

Now slightly off topic ...

I have been doing this since the days of Master of Orion, where I would only finish the game after terraforming ALL of the planets on the map into Gaia quality.

Did you give systems with small / toxic planets to the last ennemy just to be able to destroy them with stellar convector, and recolonize them from the last planet you didn't destroy in the system to get more medium gaia planets to replace the smallest/toxic ones ?

[OBAMA MCLAMA]

I have a huge problem with the picture... the belts and ore are not moving.. AERG

But.. long term mining drills sounds great, it makes it so my off-site ore processing facility becomes even bigger!

[AnarCon]

Im for all the suggested improvements
altho the dirty ore i was thinking maybe adjust the the resource patches so they contained by default more the further out from ur start base you move, simular to what RSO does and that the new tier drill got twice the mining power/speed of the electric one if this seems to balance it out.
looking forward to all the train love upgrades

[Cazadore]

Im all for additions or redesigns of how ores are processed.

How about this for lategame+ :
Smelteries and refineries to increase output of miners.
Ore gets mined then refined into ore dust or such and then it gets put into smelteries who produce bars of metal. These then get refined into what you need like our good old iron/copper plates or wires.
This process could be a medium/lategame tech unlock, wich unlocks refining machines and/or crushers to double up ores...

Comes with additional needed logistics and a rethinking how one wants to build a base.
Compatible with the current standing ideas of adding a new miner for longer livespan for mines or a change how the yield of ores behave this could add more depth for long time base builders. It doesnt need to be overwhelmingly complex.


I for myself would love the notion of endless research or additional techs.

I can just dream but i would love to be able to research combat robotics which work the same way like biters... robotic combat vehicles produced in my base and send out automaticly for search and destroy... *sigh*

[-root]

the changes to resource generation are badly needed, so that sounds really good. Please model it off RSO. I'm actually genuinely hyped for a Kovarex version of RSO, because I know it'll be great.

RE: late game mining drills... I like the idea, not the concept of adding another gameplay mechanic though. If you do want to add in some sort of super depth mining drill, I'd suggest that it either generate random resources (coal/iron/copper/stone) at a slow rate. Rather than introduce a new production chain. That way, the mining drill has to be linked in with a sorting system and there has to be enough of them to give good throughput of a resource.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

[Monolith]

I absolutely love the ideas.

Also +1 to the new fluid tanker cars for trains and the user-mentioned suggestion of radar cars and turret cars. These would be fantastic.

As a new player I have yet to try out RSO but it already bugs me that the patches I have seen so far are quite close to each other and not actually that rich. I think reworking this mechanic into something that favors long-term installations is a good move.

[KleinerNull]

How about R&D labs for the endgame science? That are special labs that are feeded with products to improve the stats of new produced products.

For example a R&D lab that takes inserters and green science packs, there are three different recipies, for speed, energy consumption and material consumption. Feeding 10/100/1000/...10**n packs and inserters could improve these states by 10%. So you can go nuts after spending a ridiculous amount of material and the research chain is decoupled from the main research tree.

Also you could produce update packs so that the construction robots could constantly update the unimproved buildings.