"Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

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Yandersen
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"Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by Yandersen »

Really dislike the outcome of FF304/FF305, and I assume I am not alone to feel that way. Few mods reverting the changes were made almost instantly, but the thing is, the oil processing hasn't been good either before or after. So the reasoning behind the 0.17.60 changes is perfectly right. It's just the Wube's implementation seem to have too many flaws. So I suggest to make a collaborated attempt from the modding community and together develop a mod that can compete with 0.17.60 patch in regards to oil processing changes.

So here are my suggestions for "Vanilla oil reworked":

1) Each crude oil resource patch must have a single Petroleum Gas extraction site among the Crude Oil spots. It is pretty realistic that natural gas is extracted at the same location as crude oil, and on a level of game simplifications it would be pretty much believable to do "Natural gas"="Petroleum gas" and allow to mine it directly just like crude oil.
{ Note that I am not suggesting to change the source of PG completely - it is still one of the products of a refinery, but as you will see later, the refining of crude oil will become available after the extraction of gas. }

2) The first oil-related tech - the "Oil processing" should be renamed to "Petroleum gas extraction". It should not unlock either refinery or the "Basic oil processing" recipe (that recipe is a goner). The "Flamethrower" tech should get locked behind the blue science as well. All this together means that the crude oil will have no use before the blue science, since it is based on PG only.
{ Note that in this particular case the new 0.17.60 version of the blue flask recipe (with red chips and sulfur) is assumed. }

3) The Petroleum gas, Light oil, Heavy oil and Crude oil itself - all should get a fuel value property. The "Petroleum gas extraction" tech should also unlock the "Turbine generator" - an electric generator driven by a turbine accepting any burnable fluid (PG/LO/HO/CO) as an input and producing electricity. For a sake of simplicity, a vanilla's Steam turbine model can be reused. This will help with establishing a first independent self-powered far outpost the player is assumed to make when facing an oil stage, since oil deposit may not have a source of water nearby to get the outpost powered by conventional boilers.

4) The Advanced oil processing tech should be renamed to "Crude oil processing". That is the point where crude oil becomes available for extraction and processing, so refineries get unlocked here. The "Advanced oil processing" recipe should be changed to "Crude oil refining" and it should replace both BOP and AOP as a single recipe dealing with crude oil. The output products should be rebalanced to provide less PG and more LO/HO since PG can be extracted separately now.

5) The pumpjack model should get an alternate version ("Wellhead") in case of using it over the PG deposit (similar to mining drill changing it's appearance over the uranium). Placing it over the crude oil extraction spot should be forbidden before the actual "Crude oil processing" get unlocked.

6) The Pumpjack/Wellhead, Chemical plant, Turbine generator and Refinery should all get a Pump included in their crafting recipes to stimulate the player to setup Engine unit production line before going into oil. The "Fluid wagon" tech should become a mandatory prerequisite for Petroleum gas extraction. Those changes target hinting the player to get acquainted with trains to transport petroleum from the far oil outpost.

---

The major advantage this system has over the 0.17.60 solution is that the refineries setup does not have to be rebuilt as when AOP comes to replace BOP. The player can practice fluid-handling by setting up PG-based production line with no need to rebuild it once crude oil processing comes online after the blue science. So when the time comes for crude oil with it's head-spinning balancing puzzle, the player will already have collected a bag of knowledge (fluid handling, chem plants, recipes) that will help him to tame the crude oil and cracking. Plus the PG-based production lines that will be established by this point will not suddenly stop by blockage being somewhat independent from the refineries' products for some time.

Who is in? ^.^

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BlueTemplar
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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by BlueTemplar »

Uh, why forcing the player to use the high(er) tech option of Fluid Wagons when barrels are currently available quite a bit earlier ?
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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by Yandersen »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:05 pm
Uh, why forcing the player to use the high(er) tech option of Fluid Wagons when barrels are currently available quite a bit earlier ?
"Those changes target hinting the player to get acquainted with trains to transport petroleum from the far oil outpost."

Otherwise it may be tempting to stick with a temporary solution of going back and forth with barrels in a trunk of the car, which is a bad practice novice players think of first. Locking "Petroleum gas extraction" tech behind fluid wagons shall give a hint that trains are expected to be used in the next step. Yes, that make sense only from a gameplay point of view - kinda guiding light for those who have no nightvision goggles. :)

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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by BlueTemplar »

Yeah, but you are then forcing trains (or, shudder, looongpipes) on the player, and greatly delaying oil !
And car-barrelling oil is only a bad practice in mid-late game, once you can actually afford to research fluid wagons and lay down the rails.

As a reminder, some tech costs :

Code: Select all

(Engine : 100 R&G)
    Car : 100 R&G (you probably don't want a new player to skip that :
                   much more freedom than train when you don't know anything about trains !)
    Railway : 75 R&G
        Train Stops : 75 R&G
        Fluid Wagon : 200 R&G (note that you pretty much need train stops to be able to use fluid wagons,
                               hopefully the devs will fix that in one way or another...)
        (Train Signals : 100 R&G - pretty optional until MUCH later,
                                   also the tutorial doesn't unlock until you get blue science,
                                   hopefully the devs will fix that !)
And remember that for new players trains are even harder to deal with than pre-0.17.60 oil processing !
Now, this is extra 350 R&G research that could be instead used on :

Code: Select all

    Fluid Handling : 50 R&G (will need this, of course)
        Oil Processing : 100 R&G
            Plastics : 200 R&G
                Red circuits : 200 R&G
            Sulfur : 150 R&G
                Battery : 150 R&G
                Explosives : 100 R&G
            Flammables : 50 R&G
                Flamethrower : 50 R&G&Mil
                Rocketry : 120 R&G&Mil (&Explosives)
                (Lubricant : 50R&G - useless in R&G science.)
I have no worries about players switching to better solutions, in my experience, moving oil by car gets old really fast !
And if they stick to oil barrels in trains, who can blame them ? (Considering the extra hassle, they will probably set up a fluid wagon on their second oil patch...)

And of course, you're linearizing and thus making less interesting the early-mid game for experienced players... who is even going to bother with barrels after that?!
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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by Yandersen »

Well, complaining about any extra forced research in R&G stage is far-fetched. From almost everybody's experience the R&G techs usually get all researched to the end before first attempt to oil is made. This is a very common fallback.
BlueTemplar wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:44 am
And of course, you're linearizing and thus making less interesting the early-mid game for experienced players... who is even going to bother with barrels after that?!
Well, I am not claiming that the solution is perfect. I just think it is better compromise than 0.17.60, and that is a goal.
As for the barrels, they really have no much use. But I think it is a separate issue.

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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by BlueTemplar »

"Almost everybody's experience"?

Oh, I see what the problem is : are you playing Default game settings, as an experienced player ?
Remember that those are designed for new players...

Sure, if you're using game settings so easy that tech just flies by, then all red and green techs will just seem one big blur to you, and you won't see a use for barrels...
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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by Deadlock989 »

Yandersen wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:10 pm
1) Each crude oil resource patch must have a single Petroleum Gas extraction site among the Crude Oil spots. ...

Who is in? ^.^
Nope. For the same reason I don't want to pull ready-made copper plates out of a hole in the ground.
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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by BlueTemplar »

You don't ? :P
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/AllMinable
Image
Not even Engines and Processing Units ?!? :0

P.S.: Also :
Image
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Re: "Vanilla oil reworked" as an alternative to 0.17.60

Post by Yandersen »

Alright. Jokes aside. Seriously, what seem more believable: mining petroleum gas directly (assuming it is the same as natural gas), or turning crude oil into PG using 1-in-1out refinery? What makes more sense? Please share your honest opinion about those two alternatives.

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