Version 0.17.59

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Serenity
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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by Serenity » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:11 pm

P.E.T.A.R. wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:03 pm
It's amazing no one really noticed those Laser Turret bugs until now. :-D
Laser turrets were already extremely strong.

Those bugfixes also negate the PLD nerf. It's way too strong, but since it benefits from the laser turret research less damage and shooting speed are just temporary

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:47 pm

Dominik wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:06 am
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm
My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)
I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.
Yes, I gathered as much. That makes it a lot less problematic at least.
Still, such a fundemental change should probably be kept for v0.18.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by Dominik » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:37 pm

Ambaire wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:36 am
Dominik wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:06 am
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm
My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)
I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.
Except some people may be relying on the basic oil processing recipe for a better ratio of heavy oil without needing to do coal liquefaction.
Ok I never got that far in my games :D

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by aka13 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:28 pm

Ambaire wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:36 am
Dominik wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:06 am
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm
My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)
I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.
Except some people may be relying on the basic oil processing recipe for a better ratio of heavy oil without needing to do coal liquefaction.
Do you mind sharing your factory? I am always limited by petroleum/crude oil availability in my games. What are you producing, that burns through so much heavy oil?
Pony/Furfag avatar? Opinion discarded.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:34 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:47 pm
Dominik wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:06 am
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm
My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)
I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.
Yes, I gathered as much. That makes it a lot less problematic at least.
Still, such a fundemental change should probably be kept for v0.18.
You might have had a point if at least one stable 0.17 had already been released...
(EDIT: I'm suspecting that they are wrapping up for it, and considering what kind of big changes they have to do now - considering that the next opportunity will be only in 0.18...)

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by slippycheeze » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:46 pm

Dominik wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:37 pm
Ambaire wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:36 am
Dominik wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:06 am
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm
My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)
I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.
Except some people may be relying on the basic oil processing recipe for a better ratio of heavy oil without needing to do coal liquefaction.
Ok I never got that far in my games :D
I said it a bunch of times, but personally, I never actually got to the point of building into the space I put aside for coal liquefaction. I always ended up not needing it, since I either overbuilt to needs already, or it was smarter to just add a new set of refineries and all their outputs.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by jodokus31 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:09 pm

slippycheeze wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:46 pm
I said it a bunch of times, but personally, I never actually got to the point of building into the space I put aside for coal liquefaction. I always ended up not needing it, since I either overbuilt to needs already, or it was smarter to just add a new set of refineries and all their outputs.
On my deathworld with default resources, it happened to me, that oil was rare or far into biter territory, but coal was alot. So coal liquefaction was a nice solution. It also has the advantage to deliver stable outcome, while oil gets less and less

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by Omnifarious » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:03 am

BlueTemplar wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:34 pm
You might have had a point if at least one stable 0.17 had already been released...
(EDIT: I'm suspecting that they are wrapping up for it, and considering what kind of big changes they have to do now - considering that the next opportunity will be only in 0.18...)
Based on their communications, I'm guessing they'll continue to release changes that may require base redesigns on the 0.17 tree after releasing a 0.17 stable. They won't call these new ones stable. And then they'll release a new 0.17 stable when they want to settle the codebase again and focus on bugs. They'll continue to do this until they have a game they consider a 1.0 release candidate.

I think the big bang integration struggle they had when trying to get 0.17 out the door caused them to move to a much more rapid release cycle where they don't have long periods of no releases to the public.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by Optera » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:46 am

Dominik wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:06 am
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm
My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)
I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.
With the additional changes to rocket fuel from FFF#305 requiring solid fuel + light oil it will affect every existing factory.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:43 am

Omnifarious wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:03 am
BlueTemplar wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:34 pm
You might have had a point if at least one stable 0.17 had already been released...
(EDIT: I'm suspecting that they are wrapping up for it, and considering what kind of big changes they have to do now - considering that the next opportunity will be only in 0.18...)
Based on their communications, I'm guessing they'll continue to release changes that may require base redesigns on the 0.17 tree after releasing a 0.17 stable. They won't call these new ones stable. And then they'll release a new 0.17 stable when they want to settle the codebase again and focus on bugs. They'll continue to do this until they have a game they consider a 1.0 release candidate.

I think the big bang integration struggle they had when trying to get 0.17 out the door caused them to move to a much more rapid release cycle where they don't have long periods of no releases to the public.
My point is that they are still more likely to try and get as much such game affecting things in before the first stable.
(For instance there were hardly any such changes between the last two 0.16 stables : funnily enough, the most "controversial" change was the change for battery graphics, which they had to do for trademark reasons.)

I'm not sure what you mean about "much more rapid release cycle", isn't it pretty similar to the 0.16 one so far ?

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by Omnifarious » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:35 am

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:43 am
My point is that they are still more likely to try and get as much such game affecting things in before the first stable.
(For instance there were hardly any such changes between the last two 0.16 stables : funnily enough, the most "controversial" change was the change for battery graphics, which they had to do for trademark reasons.)

I'm not sure what you mean about "much more rapid release cycle", isn't it pretty similar to the 0.16 one so far ?
It is similar to 0.16 so far. But, this time, I don't think there'll be a long pause of no releases after 0.17.stable is released. That's sort of what I mean by 'rapid'. Instead of a looooong pause and then a gigantic release, there'll be lots of smaller releases with no long pause, even after stable is released.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:11 am

There was NOT "a long pause of no releases" after the first 0.16 stable was released.

AFAIK, the first 0.16 stable was 0.16.36 (or was that ..35?), released 2018-03-28 (or 24) :
https://factorio.com/blog/post/016-stable
https://wiki.factorio.com/Version_histo ... .0#0.16.35
viewforum.php?f=3
The last 0.16 stable was 0.16.51, released 2018-06-15.
(Now, I'm not sure anymore whether there was yet another stable release between those two or not ?)

Also, they are also going to do a 0.18 (mostly featuring the new campaign, beta candidate ?) before 1.0.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by Hiladdar » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:21 pm

First off, I am happy with the pause on implementing the oil changes in this .59.

Personally, I would like to see a warning, specifically for oil if there is a back up and no room to store heavy / light oil until fracking is researched and set up. The way I solve this problem is set up 100k overflow tanks for heavy and light oil. That is more then enough to finish setting up chemical research and research fracking. Once that is done, I set up advanced oil processing, and fracking using the circuit network to prioritize what oil goes where, trying to keep between 20k to 80k within the 100k tank farm of each heavy and light oil.

This previous paragraph is to help those over the chemical science "hump"

In my opinion what I think will help newer players more then anything else, is based on my experience when I started playing Factorio. First a better tutorial, and campaign scenarios, to teach newer players oil processing. The second recommendation would be some sort of warning when there there is an overflow. It would be nice to have that implemented within Factorio, but can very easily be set up using the logistic network, by displaying either a green, amber, or red light next to a storage tank based on the volume of oil in that storage tank. Regarding the first recommendation, a few specialized tutorial videos would be another way to explain "chemical factory hump".

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by barbary » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:58 pm

enterisys wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:01 pm
y0 lost some UPS
I've lost about 8UPS moving to this build almost exactly the same amount gained moving to 0.17.54. Did you report this as a bug or have heard anything?

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by gGeorg » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:32 am

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:38 am
peternlewis wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:17 am
I don't know whether the planned Oil changes are good or bad, but I know as a novice I found the whole liquid processing very painful to deal with - one or other of the liquids would fill up, stopping production of whatever I was actually using. Then I'd end up just putting in more tanks to needlessly store the ones I wasn't using. And I understand that is part of the game, and not necessarily a bad thing, but I can understand the developers concerns about how it is handled for a novice player coming in early in the game.
The hack of putting a bunch of tanks at the outputs and then when they are full simply picking them up again just to immediately replace them with empty tanks is HORRIBLE.
I have done exactly the same thing, and I bet a LOT of players do the same thing. It's clearly indicative of not explaining the game properly.
[redacted] Asking for dumb down the game to your level do not please the current game population.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by mmmPI » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:51 pm

gGeorg wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:32 am
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:38 am
peternlewis wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:17 am
I don't know whether the planned Oil changes are good or bad, but I know as a novice I found the whole liquid processing very painful to deal with - one or other of the liquids would fill up, stopping production of whatever I was actually using. Then I'd end up just putting in more tanks to needlessly store the ones I wasn't using. And I understand that is part of the game, and not necessarily a bad thing, but I can understand the developers concerns about how it is handled for a novice player coming in early in the game.
The hack of putting a bunch of tanks at the outputs and then when they are full simply picking them up again just to immediately replace them with empty tanks is HORRIBLE.
I have done exactly the same thing, and I bet a LOT of players do the same thing. It's clearly indicative of not explaining the game properly.
Asking for dumb down the game to your level do not please the current game population.
So if you think the game is hard you idiot ?, I would say you deserve more respect for trying something that is not easy FOR YOU. IF you suceed everything and understand everything first time, you must not have set yourself much of a challenge.

Fact is during a long time most player would advise new player to rush Advanced Oil Processing, as the first blue science; Because of that very problem; You understood as a novice, but were only given one solution : storage in tanks ( or in form of solid fuel).

And the more time it takes you to prepare the next step, the more you need to store things. That is something i could understand is given attention by the devs. Since it would be more punishing for people who experiment without external help and very slowly than for people who looked up on internet how to do the things fast and efficient.

Also since this particular step is one in the game where you have to prepare many things that only works when all of them are set up, contrary to the previous step where you would just add something new to the end of the prod chain.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by sowieso » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:37 pm

User verification must be enabled for public multiplayer games. LAN games, direct-connect, and Steam still don't require user verification.
These kind of changes make me really sad. I bought this game on Gog and it breaks my heart when the devs integrate more and more DRM. First the restricted mod portal, now no servers without telemetry. Do you have any justification for this new anti-feature?

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:52 pm

That's "no access to official matchmaking unless you register".
Btw, I know that there are unofficial mod portals, but are there unofficial matchmaking servers yet ? (P.S.: Yes/No, no need to give their names...)

And what telemetry? DRM is not the same thing, AFAIK, all Factorio telemetry is opt-in (and anonymized, as required by GDPR) ?
Last edited by BlueTemplar on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by mmmPI » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:55 pm

sowieso wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:37 pm
now no servers without telemetry.
BlueTemplar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:52 pm
And what telemetry? DRM is not the same thing, AFAIK, all Factorio telemetry is opt-in (and anonymized, as required by GDPR) ?
This makes me curious, can you point at a source for those ?

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Re: Version 0.17.59

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:00 pm

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