Version 0.17.54

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DaveMcW
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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by DaveMcW » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:28 pm

Adding pollution to any inserter would have a performance penalty on ALL inserters. Inserters are already one of the most expensive entities in performance cost.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by FuryoftheStars » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:43 pm

DaveMcW wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:28 pm
Adding pollution to any inserter would have a performance penalty on ALL inserters. Inserters are already one of the most expensive entities in performance cost.
Doing a quick check of “if inserter.pollution then” or similar in the same block of code that makes it consume energy would hardly affect performance. And even if it did, then create a new inserter class that does pollute that inherits from the non polluting inserter class and that makes it so only the burner inserter will make those checks.

It doesn’t really make sense to have every other entity in the game that consumes fuel for energy pollute while the burner inserter doesn’t.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Oktokolo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:10 pm

Just in case other puleaudio hater comrades read this...
I tried apulse and Factorio seems to work fine with it. The normal way is probably to call apulse with the path to the executable to run. But i expect the pulseaudio pandemic to continue spreading, so i executed the following two commands as root to register apulse's puleaudio replacement libraries globally as drop-in replacement:

Code: Select all

echo '/usr/lib64/apulse' >> /etc/ld.so.conf
ldconfig
Tested on Gentoo but should work similarly on other distributions too.

Edit:
To make the setting survive the next update, you have to add it to /etc/ld.so.conf.d:

Code: Select all

echo '/usr/lib64/apulse' > '/etc/ld.so.conf.d/apulse.conf'
Last edited by Oktokolo on Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by slippycheeze » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:46 pm

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:13 pm
TheRaph wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:44 pm
FactorioBot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:51 pm
[*]Fixed that inserter tooltips would list pollution despite inserters being unable to produce pollution. (72855)
Why did a burner inserter don't produce pollution?
I’d like to know this too. It makes sense that a burner inserter would produce pollution while the electric ones don’t, so don’t understand why all have to be made to not produce pollution?
I'm going to take a wild guess, and say "gameplay balance reasons", like why we can survive a shipwreck that tears a spaceship into tiny bits, but not our fleshy bodies, and why we can mine metal ores not ... normally that accessible, quite easily, and craft complex circuit boards by hand. Realism <<< gameplay. :)

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by FuryoftheStars » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:09 am

slippycheeze wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:46 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:13 pm
TheRaph wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:44 pm
FactorioBot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:51 pm
[*]Fixed that inserter tooltips would list pollution despite inserters being unable to produce pollution. (72855)
Why did a burner inserter don't produce pollution?
I’d like to know this too. It makes sense that a burner inserter would produce pollution while the electric ones don’t, so don’t understand why all have to be made to not produce pollution?
I'm going to take a wild guess, and say "gameplay balance reasons", like why we can survive a shipwreck that tears a spaceship into tiny bits, but not our fleshy bodies, and why we can mine metal ores not ... normally that accessible, quite easily, and craft complex circuit boards by hand. Realism <<< gameplay. :)
I’m not so much touting realism on this as the fact that per their own game mechanics, every other entity in the game that burns fuel for its energy produces pollution except this one. It’s inconsistant and just doesn’t make sense with everything else they have.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Light » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:54 am

One may also consider the pollution to be negligible enough to be omitted. The amount of fuel needed to move an arm pales in comparison with other entities.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by starxplor » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:55 am

Oxyd wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:37 am
starxplor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 am
Are you suggesting deaf players shouldn't be able to play the game either because they cannot hear it?
They can simply install PulseAudio, even if they won't use it. Again, PulseAudio is installed by default on every modern distro, so for the majority of people that means they don't have to do anything special.
I was referring to the person who claimed playing the game without the sound shouldn't be possible because the sound is too important.

Is there really no way to catch the error when it does not find the library and just disable all sounds? Could even have something on the sound config page saying it is required for sound when people look into why it doesn’t make sound, but not stop the game from running.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by slippycheeze » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:29 pm

starxplor wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:55 am
Oxyd wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:37 am
starxplor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 am
Are you suggesting deaf players shouldn't be able to play the game either because they cannot hear it?
They can simply install PulseAudio, even if they won't use it. Again, PulseAudio is installed by default on every modern distro, so for the majority of people that means they don't have to do anything special.
I was referring to the person who claimed playing the game without the sound shouldn't be possible because the sound is too important.

Is there really no way to catch the error when it does not find the library and just disable all sounds? Could even have something on the sound config page saying it is required for sound when people look into why it doesn’t make sound, but not stop the game from running.
There is no easy way. I know it sounds easy, but dynamic loading at runtime is a harder problem than it sounds, especially when you want to support multiple platforms *cough* including Windows *cough* with their own complications.

If you want it to be handled the hard (but, clearly, convenient) way, your best bet is to approach the developers of the Allegro Game Library with a patch implementing dlopen-based libpulse loading, handling the cross-platform issues appropriately, and get it in there.

Then when Factorio update to a release that includes your changes it'll pick up that support "for free" because the library they use to handle cross-platform issues like "make it play sound" includes support for it.

The source is right there, go fix it. You don't need to patch Factorio, you need to patch the library they use to implement sound. Thankfully, they accept patches. :)

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by starxplor » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:25 am

slippycheeze wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:29 pm
starxplor wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:55 am
Oxyd wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:37 am
starxplor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 am
Are you suggesting deaf players shouldn't be able to play the game either because they cannot hear it?
They can simply install PulseAudio, even if they won't use it. Again, PulseAudio is installed by default on every modern distro, so for the majority of people that means they don't have to do anything special.
I was referring to the person who claimed playing the game without the sound shouldn't be possible because the sound is too important.

Is there really no way to catch the error when it does not find the library and just disable all sounds? Could even have something on the sound config page saying it is required for sound when people look into why it doesn’t make sound, but not stop the game from running.
There is no easy way. I know it sounds easy, but dynamic loading at runtime is a harder problem than it sounds, especially when you want to support multiple platforms *cough* including Windows *cough* with their own complications.

If you want it to be handled the hard (but, clearly, convenient) way, your best bet is to approach the developers of the Allegro Game Library with a patch implementing dlopen-based libpulse loading, handling the cross-platform issues appropriately, and get it in there.

Then when Factorio update to a release that includes your changes it'll pick up that support "for free" because the library they use to handle cross-platform issues like "make it play sound" includes support for it.

The source is right there, go fix it. You don't need to patch Factorio, you need to patch the library they use to implement sound. Thankfully, they accept patches. :)
I will look into it, but my programming experience is higher level so I do not know how much help I will be.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:10 pm

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:09 am
slippycheeze wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:46 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:13 pm
TheRaph wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:44 pm
FactorioBot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:51 pm
[*]Fixed that inserter tooltips would list pollution despite inserters being unable to produce pollution. (72855)
Why did a burner inserter don't produce pollution?
I’d like to know this too. It makes sense that a burner inserter would produce pollution while the electric ones don’t, so don’t understand why all have to be made to not produce pollution?
I'm going to take a wild guess, and say "gameplay balance reasons", like why we can survive a shipwreck that tears a spaceship into tiny bits, but not our fleshy bodies, and why we can mine metal ores not ... normally that accessible, quite easily, and craft complex circuit boards by hand. Realism <<< gameplay. :)
I’m not so much touting realism on this as the fact that per their own game mechanics, every other entity in the game that burns fuel for its energy produces pollution except this one. It’s inconsistant and just doesn’t make sense with everything else they have.
I don't think that vehicles produce pollution either ?
Light wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:54 am
One may also consider the pollution to be negligible enough to be omitted. The amount of fuel needed to move an arm pales in comparison with other entities.
Well, actually...
Burner Inserter : 157 kJ/item (actually more, if you count the refueling !)
Burner Drill : 600 kJ/ore
Assembler 1 : 77.5 kJ/gear (note that's 3x157kJ for the burner inserters : 2 plates in, 1 gear out !)

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by FuryoftheStars » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:20 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:10 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:09 am
slippycheeze wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:46 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:13 pm
TheRaph wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:44 pm


Why did a burner inserter don't produce pollution?
I’d like to know this too. It makes sense that a burner inserter would produce pollution while the electric ones don’t, so don’t understand why all have to be made to not produce pollution?
I'm going to take a wild guess, and say "gameplay balance reasons", like why we can survive a shipwreck that tears a spaceship into tiny bits, but not our fleshy bodies, and why we can mine metal ores not ... normally that accessible, quite easily, and craft complex circuit boards by hand. Realism <<< gameplay. :)
I’m not so much touting realism on this as the fact that per their own game mechanics, every other entity in the game that burns fuel for its energy produces pollution except this one. It’s inconsistant and just doesn’t make sense with everything else they have.
I don't think that vehicles produce pollution either ?
They do, or at least it can be modded so they do. Locomotives can, anyway.
BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:10 pm
Light wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:54 am
One may also consider the pollution to be negligible enough to be omitted. The amount of fuel needed to move an arm pales in comparison with other entities.
Well, actually...
Burner Inserter : 157 kJ/item (actually more, if you count the refueling !)
Burner Drill : 600 kJ/ore
Assembler 1 : 77.5 kJ/gear (note that's 3x157kJ for the burner inserters : 2 plates in, 1 gear out !)
Yeah, I wouldn't consider 157kJ as paling in comparison with other entities, especially seems the electric version uses significantly less (somewhere in the 30kJ range). Besides, if it really pales by that much and has negligible pollution, why even bother making it consume fuel?

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:31 pm

Yeah, electric uses *way* less :
13.4kW/(0.83i/s) = 16.1 kJ/item !
And their efficiency doubled with that of boilers...

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by FuryoftheStars » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:30 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:31 pm
Yeah, electric uses *way* less :
13.4kW/(0.83i/s) = 16.1 kJ/item !
And their efficiency doubled with that of boilers...
Ah, sorry, yes, 13.4. I knew there was a 3 in there.... :lol:

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:59 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:10 pm
Burner Inserter : 157 kJ/item (actually more, if you count the refueling !)
Burner Drill : 600 kJ/ore
Assembler 1 : 77.5 kJ/gear (note that's 3x157kJ for the burner inserters : 2 plates in, 1 gear out !)
I always had the impression that burner inserters are way too hungry for what they do. I wonder whether that is a bug or as intended.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Koub » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:00 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:59 pm
BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:10 pm
Burner Inserter : 157 kJ/item (actually more, if you count the refueling !)
Burner Drill : 600 kJ/ore
Assembler 1 : 77.5 kJ/gear (note that's 3x157kJ for the burner inserters : 2 plates in, 1 gear out !)
I always had the impression that burner inserters are way too hungry for what they do. I wonder whether that is a bug or as intended.
I think it's intended, it's even documented on the wiki : https://wiki.factorio.com/Burner_inserter
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:15 am

Hmm, I wonder about this :
Fuel consumption

A burner inserter consumes no power while idle and do not continuously consume the maximum amount of power when working, so how long fuel lasts can be measured by how many times an inserter can swing back and forth. A burner inserter fueled with coal can swing 57 times, transporting 57 items at a inserter stack size of 1, while a piece of wood lasts 28 swings, and solid fuel lasts 178 swings. From these experimental results it can be concluded that 1 MJ of fuel lasts between 14 and 14.25 swings, which is close to the actual number of 70 kJ / 1 swing.
I based my calculation on 94kW/(0.6i/s)=156.66..kJ/item
0.6i/s taken from https://factoriocheatsheet.com/#inserter-throughput

Also, my bad, looks like that burner inserter power was halved too in 0.17 !

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