Version 0.15.10

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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Daid » Thu May 11, 2017 6:53 pm

Think the steam requirement is interesting, but the end yield is so low compared to the complexity, that I'm not sure that it's worth it...
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby vanatteveldt » Thu May 11, 2017 7:01 pm

If you use nuclear you have plenty of coal and steam, so if you lack oil it can be a very good option...
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Nasabot » Thu May 11, 2017 8:57 pm

I like the new coal liquification recipe. Its actually quite easy to design and it makes the refinery complex more interesting.
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby netmand » Thu May 11, 2017 9:33 pm

When I loaded my 0.15.9 map into 0.15.10 after a while I noticed my steam delivery train had water in it's tanks... easy fix, but just thought I'd post it as an FYI. (500°C) Steam powered outposts are still good for me.

Thanks for adding steam as a fluid in network logics. I thought it odd to measure steam using the water icon.

I was oblivious to the fracker change from water to steam until I noticed my plastic production was weak... still love using coal over crude since the normal map has typically less oil to find nearby.... gives me another way to burn wood too!
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby searker » Thu May 11, 2017 9:45 pm

netmand wrote:When I loaded my 0.15.9 map into 0.15.10 after a while I noticed my steam delivery train had water in it's tanks... easy fix, but just thought I'd post it as an FYI. (500°C) Steam powered outposts are still good for me.


That was most likely the case since steam was just water with an higher temperature until now. After you cleared that first load, it was fine, wasnt it?
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Mehve » Fri May 12, 2017 1:38 am

  • Increased maximum wire distance of all circuit connectable entities from 7.5 to 9.

This little change is turning out to be surprisingly helpful, I'm finding. So many instances that I'd have to either insert an extra power pole, or awkwardly arrange stuff... now I can just go ahead and connect the wires!
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Optera » Fri May 12, 2017 5:03 am

I don't like steam being it's own "fluid".
Having even rudimentary evaporation and condensation would have been fun to play with.
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby bobingabout » Fri May 12, 2017 10:00 am

Optera wrote:I don't like steam being it's own "fluid".
Having even rudimentary evaporation and condensation would have been fun to play with.


I know why it was done though.

Basically... say you want a recipe that needs steam. You can define an ingredient as {type="fluid", name="water", amount="10", min_temperature = "100"}, and the game would report that the recipe requires "Water" giving no required temperature information, and when you actually try and give it water, it won't work.

If steam is it's own fluid, you can just ask for steam, and the game will report that you need steam.

Ultimately, changing hot water into steam was an easier solution than trying to make the game report and properly handle a minimum temperature, and change the display of what fluid was required in a bi-state fluid.
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby jaggmann » Fri May 12, 2017 10:32 am

I like the diverse changes to the recipe format .I find that the electric furnace slows me down .Just a thought about belt length .To better accommodate blueprints .Could a post belt lay modification be in order ? To flatten the underground belt end points on the end where it joins the raised point of the other section ? At at cost of coarse .I like longer belts and pipes because they are neater and less obstructive .
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Optera » Fri May 12, 2017 10:53 am

bobingabout wrote:
Optera wrote:I don't like steam being it's own "fluid".
Having even rudimentary evaporation and condensation would have been fun to play with.


I know why it was done though.

Basically... say you want a recipe that needs steam. You can define an ingredient as {type="fluid", name="water", amount="10", min_temperature = "100"}, and the game would report that the recipe requires "Water" giving no required temperature information, and when you actually try and give it water, it won't work.

If steam is it's own fluid, you can just ask for steam, and the game will report that you need steam.

Ultimately, changing hot water into steam was an easier solution than trying to make the game report and properly handle a minimum temperature, and change the display of what fluid was required in a bi-state fluid.

Sure it's simpler but having a fun mechanic like that would open so many possibilities. Just think of water purification or desalinators.
Steam stored in tanks could also more easily be made to cool down without a medium transformation so we don't have 100% efficient energy storage.
I have placed way too much ONI recently. :D
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby silverkitty23 » Fri May 12, 2017 11:22 am

bobingabout wrote:Ultimately, changing hot water into steam was an easier solution than trying to make the game report and properly handle a minimum temperature, and change the display of what fluid was required in a bi-state fluid.


But the latter would have been more general because mods could require hot (insert fluid here) for recipes.
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby bobingabout » Fri May 12, 2017 12:52 pm

Optera wrote:
bobingabout wrote:
Optera wrote:I don't like steam being it's own "fluid".
Having even rudimentary evaporation and condensation would have been fun to play with.


I know why it was done though.

Basically... say you want a recipe that needs steam. You can define an ingredient as {type="fluid", name="water", amount="10", min_temperature = "100"}, and the game would report that the recipe requires "Water" giving no required temperature information, and when you actually try and give it water, it won't work.

If steam is it's own fluid, you can just ask for steam, and the game will report that you need steam.

Ultimately, changing hot water into steam was an easier solution than trying to make the game report and properly handle a minimum temperature, and change the display of what fluid was required in a bi-state fluid.

Sure it's simpler but having a fun mechanic like that would open so many possibilities. Just think of water purification or desalinators.
Steam stored in tanks could also more easily be made to cool down without a medium transformation so we don't have 100% efficient energy storage.
I have placed way too much ONI recently. :D


I'm going to do a steam condenser to make pure water. The problem is that I already have 2 types of water (Water and Lithia water) and only water can be boiled right now. So it does actually make things more awkward than not, because you won't be able to boil your pure water that comes out, or Lithia water either.

You have more issues the other way around too, if you go back to 2/3 different versions of water, you'd then have 3 different versions of steam, so making a recipe that requires "Steam" isn't as easy as it sounds in that method.

Plus, the temperature based stuff, probably still exists, it's just not used by the base game. (I mean, we still have loader tech even though it's not used, why would they remove the functionality for bi-state fluids if it doesn't break anything to leave it in?)
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Avezo » Fri May 12, 2017 1:29 pm

SpeedDaemon wrote:
Adeon Hawkwood wrote:
Avezo wrote:For example, that steam for coal liquification seems weird, just put a boiler next to a line full of coal that's already there and plug in, doesn't seem to add much to the game. Theoretically setting up combined power plant and refinery might be cool, but I'm personally not going to try that before smarter people crack up all the new ratios.

I'm thinking that the change might have been done to increase the energy costs of the process more than anything else. Right now if you run the recipe and convert everything to solid fuel you actually end up with more stored energy than you started with (10 coal = 80MJ, 10 coal = 10 H. Oil + 15 L. Oil + 20 Petroleum = 3.25 Solid Fuel = 81.25MJ, assuming H. Oil is cracked to L. Oil). Now obviously you use more than 1.25MJ actually running the process but it's still a very favorable rate of return, particularly if your regular processing has excess light oil and you use petroleum from this rather than converting that light oil to petroleum (10 coal + 30 L. Oil = 80MJ + 20 Petroleum, 10 coal + 30 L. Oil = 10 H. Oil + 45 L. Oil + 20 Petroleum = 5.25 Solid Fuel + 20 Petroleum = 131.25MJ + 20 Petroleum). Changing the process to require steam indirectly increases the energy cost of the process.


RL processes for coal liquefaction do actually start with coal+heavy oil, and then take place at high temp (400-500C) and pressure, so steam makes perfect sense. In fact, it seems like they should be requiring higher temp steam than we actually get from a boiler. :)

Anyone running nuclear power is probably going to have an excess of 500C steam anyway, so coal liquefaction with steam seems like a natural compliment to that.


But don't all processes in refineries take place at high temperatures? All other oil-related recipes in Factorio should require steam instead of water aswell then.
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby SpeedDaemon » Fri May 12, 2017 7:53 pm

Avezo wrote:But don't all processes in refineries take place at high temperatures? All other oil-related recipes in Factorio should require steam instead of water as well then.


Quiet! They might hear you... :D

That said, I'd be fine with oil cracking requiring steam
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby IronCartographer » Fri May 12, 2017 9:07 pm

bobingabout wrote:Plus, the temperature based stuff, probably still exists, it's just not used by the base game. (I mean, we still have loader tech even though it's not used, why would they remove the functionality for bi-state fluids if it doesn't break anything to leave it in?)


When I heard they were planning to separate steam as its own fluid (from a FFF announcing nuclear mechanics a while back), I figured they were dropping temperature as part of the optimizations for fluid flow simulation. It's quite possible to improve things by simplifying, though they don't seem to have done so in this case.
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Sonik-HSC » Sat May 13, 2017 7:39 pm

After this update im experiencing some lags or is only my impression.... I have 4core I7 2.7+16 ram ddr4+ asus 1060 4 gb ddr5 dedicated
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby warrior62 » Sun May 14, 2017 11:14 am

I'm still in version 14.23 on Steam Why ?

Thanks
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Klonan » Sun May 14, 2017 1:07 pm

warrior62 wrote:I'm still in version 14.23 on Steam Why ?

Thanks


0.15 is an opt-in beta, you should only play if you are willing to report bugs that you find on our forum, and face potential game or save breaking issues and instability.
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby Keplergamer » Sun May 14, 2017 6:04 pm

Which is 1% of the cases or less here on this game. :D
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Re: Version 0.15.10

Postby henke37 » Mon May 15, 2017 4:51 am

Which is still a lot compared to a stable game.
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