Version 0.18.14

[valneq]

joules over time

Also known as "watts".

… well … strictly speaking, 1 Watt = 1 Joule / 1 Second, which is the unit of power.
I think DBotThePony was talking about the integrated power consumption over time, which is an energy measured in Joules.

[Deadlock989]

integrated power consumption over time

I don't know what you mean by that.

[DBotThePony]

Currently, we always see averaged power usage in watts over all possible time periods. This sometimes make sense, sometimes does not. For example - Total tab. What do these watts mean? Average usage in watts over entire time? What is entire time? And how does 5 Kilowatt lamp consumed more power over 1 hour than 7 megawatt drill consumed in 5 seconds on Total tab?

Watts are good for displaying on graphs and instantaneous power usage, but total power usage should be in joules, since we almost always want to know how much a machine consumed energy over X period of time, not it's average consumption (because some machines consume extreme amounts of power in short periods, and most of time it idle almost without any consumption)

[Deadlock989]

Currently, we always see averaged power usage in watts over all possible time periods. This sometimes make sense, sometimes does not. For example - Total tab. What do these watts mean? Average usage in watts over entire time? What is entire time? And how does 5 Kilowatt lamp consumed more power over 1 hour than 7 megawatt drill consumed in 5 seconds on Total tab?

Watts are good for displaying on graphs and instantaneous power usage, but total power usage should be in joules, since we almost always want to know how much a machine consumed energy over X period of time, not it's average consumption (because some machines consume extreme amounts of power in short periods, and most of time it idle almost without any consumption)

What "Total tab"?

The "entire time" is ... the time that you selected from the big string of buttons with times on them. If you select 1 hour and the average consumption in that hour is 1 MW then you know that you consumed 3600 MJ over that hour. Whether it spikes in power or not, whether it is idle or not, is irrelevant to that. That's what average means.

Every machine shows its power consumption in watts. Everything to do with the power system is measured in watts, which are joules per second. If, for some reason, you needed to know exactly how many joules a specific network burned in a specific period, it could take you seconds on a calculator given the information provided. But that's a lump sum of power and it's a product of what's on the graph over time. It could maybe be a stat somewhere else on the GUI but it just seems like clutter that most people won't need.

Sorry but I find this confusing and weird, like we're playing two different games. The only reason I ever open the menu is to check that my power production has the ability to keep up with demand.

[DBotThePony]

Currently, we always see averaged power usage in watts over all possible time periods. This sometimes make sense, sometimes does not. For example - Total tab. What do these watts mean? Average usage in watts over entire time? What is entire time? And how does 5 Kilowatt lamp consumed more power over 1 hour than 7 megawatt drill consumed in 5 seconds on Total tab?

Watts are good for displaying on graphs and instantaneous power usage, but total power usage should be in joules, since we almost always want to know how much a machine consumed energy over X period of time, not it's average consumption (because some machines consume extreme amounts of power in short periods, and most of time it idle almost without any consumption)

What "Total tab"?

The "entire time" is ... the time that you selected from the big string of buttons with times on them. If you select 1 hour and the average consumption in that hour is 1 MW then you know that you consumed 3600 MJ over that hour. Whether it spikes in power or not, whether it is idle or not, is irrelevant to that. That's what average means.

Every machine shows its power consumption in watts. Everything to do with the power system is measured in watts, which are joules per second. If, for some reason, you needed to know exactly how many joules a specific network burned in a specific period, it could take you seconds on a calculator given the information provided. But that's a lump sum of power and it's a product of what's on the graph over time. It could maybe be a stat somewhere else on the GUI but it just seems like clutter that most people won't need.

Sorry but I find this confusing and weird, like we're playing two different games. The only reason I ever open the menu is to check that my power production has the ability to keep up with demand.

Yes, machines show consumption in watts. It means, if machine work full power for 1 second it will consume X joules in it's tooltip. But machines tend not to work all the time, or work less than full. Great example - inserters. They work very short periods and every moment it's power consumption differ. For 5 seconds graph/statistics it is good to measure power consumption in watts (because it is very short time span), but for wider periods averaged watts start to not make sense.

For example, look at these screenshots, which perfectly show why current "watts" over any time period can't be much descriptive

https://i.dbotthepony.ru/2020/03/20/fac ... QDF7mO.png
"Total" tab. We can see here, that steel electric furnaces consumed fair amount of energy. Ok?
https://i.dbotthepony.ru/2020/03/20/fac ... VoLiA2.png
Can't see them here.
https://i.dbotthepony.ru/2020/03/20/fac ... HGWpIP.png
Can't see them here too.
https://i.dbotthepony.ru/2020/03/20/fac ... ga80T9.png
Wow, here they are! Also, notice roboport energy usage spikes, and COMPLETELY constant energy shields energy consumption. And it is more than double consumption as on "Total" tab. This does not make sense.
https://i.dbotthepony.ru/2020/03/20/fac ... akXaOK.png
50 hours. Finally, roboport is on top. But what's that green on production?
https://i.dbotthepony.ru/2020/03/20/fac ... OhZucd.png
That's gas generator! And why it says 11 MW? Maybe i have an idea.

yes, we can calculate it as 3600 * 50 * 11 to get ‭1 980 000‬ MJ, but on total tab... we have no idea how long it goes. And sometimes someone (including me) just want to know how much in joules something consumed (to directly put against burnt fuel, etc.)

[Deadlock989]

I don't understand what it is that you want instead. Or why, but start with what. You don't like watts for some reason. You want joules over time instead. Which is ... watts, if the time is a second, or some weird "joules per 5 hours" or whatever if it's some other period ... The graph would look exactly same whatever units you make up.

Wow, here they are! Also, notice roboport energy usage spikes, and COMPLETELY constant energy shields energy consumption. And it is more than double consumption as on "Total" tab. This does not make sense.

Shields? On the power network? Probably some janky mod's fault. Roboport energy spikes are completely normal. Like lots of other stuff, they have a low constant drain and then they demand a lot more power when they have to do work, i.e. charge bots.

[DBotThePony]

Shields? On the power network?

Yes, turret shields. On power network. The problem here, "All" tab does not show us over which time period it show power consumption. And also, the fact, that turret shields were consuming exactly 234 MW of power over 10+ hours, but "All" still show them as 108 MW.

And i do like Watts. I don't like them being utilized in such way. Instead of averaging watts over time, i would like to see consumed joules instead.

[Deadlock989]

Yes, turret shields. On power network. The problem here, "All" tab does not show us over which time period it show power consumption. And also, the fact, that turret shields were consuming exactly 234 MW of power over 10+ hours, but "All" still show them as 108 MW.

And i do like Watts. I don't like them being utilized in such way. Instead of averaging watts over time, i would like to see consumed joules instead.

OK, if the "All" button is what you meant when you were saying "Total tab" before, I think I understand now.

Yes, it is a bit odd that you can't see how long "all time" is, but it doesn't strike me as a deal-breaker. It just means "in this game".

Assuming the shields mod isn't fubar, then those results would be exactly what you'd expect if the shields were built within the last 10 hours but your game lasted longer than 10 hours. 234 MW = the average power consumption over the last 10 hours. 108 MW = average power consumption over the length of the current game, for part of which the shields weren't connected to that network or did not exist and therefore their consumption was zero, so the average is lower.

This GUI is designed to show average power consumption over a specified period. You want a different GUI that shows total energy consumed since the dawn of time. I don't want that GUI particularly, and I wouldn't have any use for it, but I understand why other people might want it, and it wouldn't hurt anyone to have it if didn't get in the way of what we have now.

[Hiladdar]

Although I am OK with menu bar, I recommend including the capability to import blueprints via the blueprint window. That is the intuitive location for it.

Hiladdar

[Zanostra]

I cannot import BP files anymore as the dedicated tabs / buttons are missing

You can import BP strings using "Import string" from the shortcut bar. But I would prefer the Imput string button back in the BP GUI.

thanks - the bug was on me - I found that in my my settings to the shortcut bar the import was off

I too would like the import string button back in the Blueprint menu, OR a dedicated keybind, like the rest of the blueprint library functions. The most utility I've found in the shortcut bar is checking combination keybindings, because they are more efficient to deploy. Edit: And monitoring the status of Personal Roboports/Exoskeletons which I've just recognized the utility of..

After using the new mechanics a few times I / one gets used to.
I was initially very sceptic but now I love it.

I do miss the button to import blueprint strings in the blueprint menu.
it feels natural to be able to do all blueprint related stuff in the blueprint menu, including importing strings.
I want the shortcut bar as small as possible to not cover the workable building space ( using lots of big blueprints I find myself walking around alot so I can place my mouse where the quickbar was before ).
and I feel more organised with only one gui opened at the same time.
without the shortcut button 'import string' you have to open the whole shortcut menu.
then when clicking that tiny button 'import string' the import window opens, but the shortcut menu does not close, being inconsistent with the rest of the game.
within your inventory opening a power armor will replace inventory window with power armor window, only one window opened.
same goes for opening a blueprint within a blueprint book, and same goes for opening the inventory, and then the technology screen, the inventory closes.

[picklock]

I like Zanostra also miss the button to import blueprint strings in the blueprint GUI. For me it is natural to look there for it at first. And please unlook it again from the beginning of the game and not after the research of logistic.