ChatGPT

Things that are not directly connected with Factorio.
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AdamK
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ChatGPT

Post by AdamK »

ChatGPT> What is Factorio?
Factorio is a popular real-time strategy and simulation game developed and published by Wube Software. The game was first released in 2016 and is available on Microsoft Windows, MacOS, and Linux platforms.

In Factorio, players are tasked with building and managing an industrial factory while defending against hostile alien creatures. The game starts with the player stranded on an alien planet with minimal resources and technology. The player must gather resources, build machines and factories, and automate production processes to create increasingly complex items.

As the game progresses, players must research and develop new technologies to improve their factory's efficiency, expand their production capabilities, and defend against increasingly challenging enemies. Factorio has a single-player campaign mode as well as a multiplayer mode where players can collaborate or compete with each other.

Factorio has received critical acclaim for its addictive gameplay, complex mechanics, and attention to detail. It has a large and dedicated community of players who create and share mods to expand and enhance the game.


ChatGPT> Describe best green circuit manufactuig design in Factorio
The best green circuit manufacturing design in Factorio can vary depending on the player's specific needs and preferences, but here is a general guide to creating an efficient green circuit production line:

Raw material input: The production line should start with a steady supply of copper plates and iron plates. These can be transported via conveyor belts or trains.

Smelting: The copper plates and iron plates need to be smelted into copper and iron ingots. This can be done with furnaces.

Wire production: The copper ingots can be turned into copper wire in an assembler.

Green circuit production: Green circuits are made by combining copper wire with iron plates in an assembler. The green circuits can then be transported to storage or used in other production processes.

Advanced production: To increase efficiency, you can add modules to the assemblers to speed up production and reduce resource usage. You can also use beacons to further increase productivity.

Expand the production: Once you have a steady supply of green circuits, you can expand the production by adding more assemblers, furnaces, and input lines.

Balance the production: To ensure all machines receive an equal amount of resources, use balancers to balance the flow of copper plates and iron plates into the smelters and assemblers.

Automate the production: Use logistics robots to transport items between machines, and use circuit networks to control the production process.

Overall, the key to an efficient green circuit manufacturing design in Factorio is to balance the production and automate the process as much as possible, while also utilizing advanced production techniques to increase productivity.
Step2: make it design blueprints. I'm kidding, nobody really wants it :P

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by vjbone »

Raw material input: The production line should start with a steady supply of copper plates and iron plates. These can be transported via conveyor belts or trains.

Smelting: The copper plates and iron plates need to be smelted into copper and iron ingots. This can be done with furnaces.
I see...

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by SoShootMe »

vjbone wrote:
Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:12 am
Raw material input: The production line should start with a steady supply of copper plates and iron plates. These can be transported via conveyor belts or trains.

Smelting: The copper plates and iron plates need to be smelted into copper and iron ingots. This can be done with furnaces.
I see...
Just like the errors you often see in news reports of some event you directly know about, I'm sure everything else is 100% correct... ("'Twas ever thus.")

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by Tertius »

Oh, ChatGPT even knows about building things. It knows about how to play the game. If you ask it to build a circuit controlled balanced train loading or unloading station, it will explain in great detail how to place belts, wires and buildings. Unfortunately, it cannot output pictures and blueprints. It even apologizes that it cannot.

You can also ask it to explain how to build an (impossible) 3-to-5 lane-balanced belt balancer, and it will answer how to place every belt and splitter. The only letdown is that it actually doesn't work what it describes.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Moving this to off topic, because it's more a post on ChatGPT than a post on Factorio itself.

Bear in mind that ChatGPT (and all its current competitors) is basically a bullshit generator that's actually very good at generating text that seems to make perfect sense. It's so good that it gives the impression it's able to converse, when in reality, it's designed to generate the text the user is actually expecting.

Note : in this context, I use bullshit not as a criticism, but as its original meaning : these text generators are programmed to answer what their user is expecting, that sounds sensible if not true, but with in reality absolutely no by-design constraint on telling the truth. At most their respective dev teams tried to add a layer of answer the right things on some slippery slopes like climate change, and stuff. but the protection is not that good, and it's still doable to engage them in these directions if creative enough in the question.

TLDR : don't expect truth from ChatGPT and its siblings, just expect things that sound right. Thins includes subjects like Factorio.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by T-A-R »

It surely is not an answer machine, exactly how Koub described it, but it does prove it's indexing came a long way, sometimes exact and surprising to a point that gets uncomfortable.
Puzzle solving AI's (playing monopoly or running hordes) did make me wonder about AI capabilities of reading/writing blueprints or even playing the game, and what design decisions it would come up with. Like Warzone or Command and Conquer, a base building AI opponent in Factorio would not be a real surprise to appear one day. Tactics intelligence for example is already shown with Rampant biters.

It feels mining outpost blueprint generators and image to tile-blueprint converters would currently be a better starting point in fully automated Factorio. Extending those tools to include all entities and their functions, and use them like a circuit board generator.
Only after that you can start automating the selection of strategies to meet those requirements. Tools like that exactly is what chatgpt does not provide, nor write. But i wouldn't say that current day AI's could not implement these tools if they specifically would be provided/combined.

AI's indexing, bench marking and reproducing factories would be a wild dream, especially when you start feeding it strange things like sushi-, car-belt- or even reproductive blueprint-bases to learn and reproduce from. The ultimate factory we are all hunting for. The solution beyond our comprehension. But the perfect base does not exist, we all appreciate different things, as efficiency can be explained in different ways (resource, space, time , scalability etc.). Besides, technically are far far from that level in the consumer range of AI's. I have the feeling speedrunners and megabasers will be safe, at least until we know what the coming expansion will be like.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by coppercoil »

Koub wrote:
Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:41 pm
TLDR : don't expect truth from ChatGPT and its siblings, just expect things that sound right. Thins includes subjects like Factorio.
That's not true. Regarding the facts or opinions, it gives very good answers. I had a long and fun discussion about specific things I really know, and it gave correct explanations regardless of my subtle tricks to misguide it. Moreover, it pointed out important things I really forgot. It also explained what are the controversial aspects (I did not ask about the global warming though).

On another hand, ChatGPT fails if answers require creativity, non-standard approaches and so on. This includes subjects like Factorio.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by Tertius »

It also has deep technical "knowledge" about computer stuff. It's really not just an answering machine creating random text pulled from a database by some identifying tokens in the question.

The other day I had a huge *.json-formatted database dump, and I wanted to quickly query some fields without importing it to some real database. The perfect tool for querying json data is jq, however one has to study and practice its filter feature. So I employed ChatGPT to find the right filter for me. I gave it a reduced database (just one record for the relevant tables I wanted to query), and a textual descriptions which fields on what conditions I wanted to extract.
I got an almost correct jq command line with a big filter statement, which enabled me to work on it and create the actually correct filter.
That saved a huge amount of time for me, and that's of huge value. May be it wasn't even ChatGPT's fault for giving only an almost correct filter statement, may be it was just me not defining the text question good enough.

The generated filter used features from deep within the jq documentation, so ChatGPT really "knows" rules and how to apply them. It's probably just another language for it: my text question is one language (it wasn't even English, I wrote in German), and the jq filter is the same thing formulated in some output language (jq filter syntax).

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by mmmPI »

I'm quite confident in the fact that when i ask chatGPT what is the stinkiest cheese in the world i'm getting an answer indexed from a database, or more generally the internet. Same when i ask how it taste :) There is no official ranking or description afaik, and everyone is free to make his own cheese let it rot somewhere and give it a name without telling the internet, and there are many articles all over the internet with clickbait title for people that wants to know about cheese listing " the stinkiest cheese in the world". I think it is fairly obvious for a human being that the question has no definitive answer, the "knowledge" doesn't exist because cheese's smell is not standardized or measured like mammal's average height with scientific tests meant at "creating knowledge". Asking what is the tallest specie of animal on earth would give a definitive answer, not the stinkiest cheese. But how can a smart chatbot tell the difference if it's only given poor piece of reference like random tourist marketers making up their own list with very little regard to factual measures ?

What is the most efficient way to organise production of green circuit ? is the same kind of question where interpretation is heavy on the definition of "efficient" and to a lesser extend "the most". In the original answer, the term "the best" was not kept to describe the later answer and instead another term "efficient" was choosen. But the imprecision in the terms of the question/answer is no obstacle for smart chatbot, because there are already references using the term "efficient", smart chatbot will pull them and try to make up some answer that seem consistent. If you try to know by asking some more questions, "how the word efficient was understood in the previous answer", you are trying something that is not possible, because that's not how smart chatbot works. It will digress instead on definition of efficiency from the dictionnary . With more precise questionning i guess it could explain the different ways of understanding effiency in factorio, such as energy, or space, or number of machine, or based on ressource input/output, if it find a discussion about it online, but it seem to be bad at understanding which definition of the word is used implicitly in an answer that it uses as a reference when describing "the most efficient way to organise the production of green circuit". ( chatbot doesn't/can't know/tell why chatbot thinks he knows).

Asking for things about factorio can be similar to asking things about smell or taste, things that ChatGPT or those algorithm that impersonnate a assistant can't experience or math out or logically infer, or deduce. The "source of knowledge" come from elsewhere, it is information written somewhere passed on elsewhere with the only way for the algorithm to estimate the truthfullness being "trust" on sources which are not provided with the answer :( Although one can ask chatGPT where to get more informations on things, it's going to be difficult to know where did the "ingots" term came from.

Not everyone feels the same about a watch that give you the correct time only sometimes.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by jodokus31 »

coppercoil wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:00 pm
Koub wrote:
Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:41 pm
TLDR : don't expect truth from ChatGPT and its siblings, just expect things that sound right. Thins includes subjects like Factorio.
That's not true. Regarding the facts or opinions, it gives very good answers.
I would say, instead of "don't expect truth", i would say, expect failures and mistakes. Many things are correct, but not everything...

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Post by coppercoil »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:34 pm
I would say, instead of "don't expect truth", i would say, expect failures and mistakes. Many things are correct, but not everything...
I would say, expect mostly the truth, just don't trust 100%. I think ChatGPT is way better than just "many things are correct". Its answers are so laconic and precise, not every human could form such sentences. You can even ask how many sentences or columns you want for the answer :D

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by jodokus31 »

coppercoil wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:30 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:34 pm
I would say, instead of "don't expect truth", i would say, expect failures and mistakes. Many things are correct, but not everything...
I would say, expect mostly the truth, just don't trust 100%. I think ChatGPT is way better than just "many things are correct". Its answers are so laconic and precise, not every human could form such sentences. You can even ask how many sentences or columns you want for the answer :D
There's a saying, if some "lies" one time, you don't believe him, although he says the truth next time.
But ChatGPT has no morality(?), so you can't really apply this saying here. There's no tactical "lie" or any personal reason behind the "lie".

The point is, that you can't fully trust and that makes it's dangerous.
It's a bit like someone does the googling work for you, but misinterprets things differently.

Still, it's impressive and I can see it as generator for a skeleton regarding a topic, where you have to verify everything single statement. I wonder, how school/teachers will handle this.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by coppercoil »

jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:23 am
The point is, that you can't fully trust and that makes it's dangerous.
It's a bit like someone does the googling work for you, but misinterprets things differently.
I would say the opposite: in general, it is more dangerous if non-specialist does the googling by himself. Most people just read few links from the first result page, but how good are these resources? Do people read carefully, or just do quick "scan" of the article? Are they able to make correct conclusions regarding unfamiliar topics? Are they free of personal "bubbles"? ChatGPT is trained on thousands of articles, you will never ever read. Yes, ChatGPT can be wrong, like... Wikipedia can be. Nevertheless, Wikipedia is pretty good resource for most people, in most cases.
If you don't have much time for some question, and your life does not depend on the answer, ChatGPT may be better than Wikipedia, just because you can ask specific aspects you want, without reading entire article in Wikipedia. I must say, I still use google instead of ChatGPT, but maybe this is just a habit :)

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by jodokus31 »

coppercoil wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:49 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:23 am
The point is, that you can't fully trust and that makes it's dangerous.
It's a bit like someone does the googling work for you, but misinterprets things differently.
I would say the opposite: in general, it is more dangerous if non-specialist does the googling by himself. Most people just read few links from the first result page, but how good are these resources? Do people read carefully, or just do quick "scan" of the article? Are they able to make correct conclusions regarding unfamiliar topics? Are they free of personal "bubbles"? ChatGPT is trained on thousands of articles, you will never ever read. Yes, ChatGPT can be wrong, like... Wikipedia can be. Nevertheless, Wikipedia is pretty good resource for most people, in most cases.
If you don't have much time for some question, and your life does not depend on the answer, ChatGPT may be better than Wikipedia, just because you can ask specific aspects you want, without reading entire article in Wikipedia. I must say, I still use google instead of ChatGPT, but maybe this is just a habit :)
I don't trust a machine, which makes it's own conclusions and interpretations. May it be better at it or even more objective, it can also be biased by something, which I don't endorse at all. Or can contain the opinions regarding something, I don't like at all and are not part of my worldview.
In the end, I don't want a machine think for me, every human should be able to make their own conclusions, even if they contain mistakes, it's better than it might contain mistakes made by an AI. And the most important, people should not be or get lazy at thinking.

What does it even mean, people are not able to make correct conclusions? It can be said only about hard facts, which have no margin for interpretations. But, there is so much in the world, which are not hard facts. And there are lot of opinions, about what even is a hard fact. We are very fast in the realm of philosophy.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by coppercoil »

jodokus31 wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:40 am
I don't trust a machine, which makes it's own conclusions and interpretations.
ChatGPT is not designed to make it's own conclusions. I just... arranges words which match better its trained network, as Koub said. Though, it does it very well. Ask ChatGPT, what was its training dataset :)
By the way, do you trust in google? Why? Do you know how results ranking works? I don't think so.

People already are lazy at thinking, they always were. You and me, and other engineers are exceptions by definition 8-). Ok, let's say in other words: no one man is able to study all the topics. Despite I'm pretty clever, not all topics are so interesting to me to spend enough time, o just... I don't have much time. If I have just 2 or 5 minutes for some question, ChatGPT may give generalized and concentrated facts or public opinions. Or, if you a specialist, ChatGPT may give insights you still don't know or just forgot. I've tried it. Did you?

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by jodokus31 »

coppercoil wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:43 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:40 am
I don't trust a machine, which makes it's own conclusions and interpretations.
ChatGPT is not designed to make it's own conclusions. I just... arranges words which match better its trained network, as Koub said. Though, it does it very well. Ask ChatGPT, what was its training dataset :)
By the way, do you trust in google? Why? Do you know how results ranking works? I don't think so.
I don't trust google or other search engines. But I see, where I get which info and I can decide, whether I believe it or not. Also the search results might contain preferred websites or even some results can be missing.
Still, ChatGPT is another layer of abstraction to all of this. So, I can't decide even less, which source I can trust.
coppercoil wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:43 am
People already are lazy at thinking, they always were. You and me, and other engineers are exceptions by definition 8-). Ok, let's say in other words: no one man is able to study all the topics. Despite I'm pretty clever, not all topics are so interesting to me to spend enough time, o just... I don't have much time. If I have just 2 or 5 minutes for some question, ChatGPT may give generalized and concentrated facts or public opinions. Or, if you a specialist, ChatGPT may give insights you still don't know or just forgot. I've tried it. Did you?
I think ChatGPT can be similar helpful to google, wiki or other sources of knowledge. But I think, that people should stay critical and don't believe everything. And ChatGPT is something, which can evolve dangerously. The internet has a big problem with truth and ChatGPT is an instrument, which doesn't help to encourage truth, esp. if it's about controversial topics. And you should also ask, who has developed it and what are the interests (at least economical)

So, enough blackpainting.

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by jodokus31 »

BTW:
Nice Song regarding ChatGPT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVF3q5Y68-0

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Re: ChatGPT

Post by TheKillerChicken »

I simply do not and will not trust psuedo algorithms as they are crap-ass piles of silicone and metal. They know nothing like a human does. Simply wasted resources and power that could have been used for a good cause....

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