""Factorio 2""

[blazespinnaker]

I don't think anyone is fighting here. ptx0 is just disappointed that I haven't tried out satisfactory while expressing opinions on it. it's a reasonable complaint, but honestly, after being burned so many zillions of times on this archetype I am a little gunshy when it comes to trying anything with shiny graphics and no clear game play improvements.

[ptx0]

yeah, ad hominems and tautologic arguments don't add much

I agree, so instead of using them like "quite telling you can't answer my question", why not read what I wrote? trains in satisfactory's 3d world use more power when going uphill.

your whole premise is flawed. they didn't use the 3D as merely "woo it's 3D", it adds to gameplay. a lot. there's not just trains using more power - you can die by falling from great heights, so you want to build your factory buildings to be safe for walking around in - at least, until you get jetpack. and then the jetpack might run out of fuel, or you mis-time the power bar use - and still die.

ask posila, who plays much Satisfactory, whether it's stolen anything from Wube, or if any of the factorio developers feel pain at Satisfactory. maybe just reference the FFF where kovarex mentions that he is glad another game exists in the factory sphere? your anger at them is just misplaced. it's yours alone, not Wube's, so I don't know where you feel justified in all of it. in the legal world, we say "you have no standing here".

the main objections I see to people comparing Satis to Factorio is that Satis lacks base defense... but uhm, most megabase players don't use enemies.. and then the games are fairly much the same other than the tech, the recipes, and some of the game mechanics.

there's no inserters, no sideloading, but there's splitters, mergers, programmable splitters, and mods to add even more than this. you can downclock a machine to make it more efficient, or you can overclock it to the point that it's doing nothing but wasting power.

did you know about the machine efficiency penalty in satisfactory? if your machines are over or under producing, it actually hurts your production because the machines have a spool-up time.

not to mention that factorio allows power to brown out, whereas satisfactory has a hard limit fuse system that shuts your whole base's power off when it's overloaded - bringing it back online isn't as simple as "add a bit more power" because buffers will run out and pumps will all kick in when you reset the fuse - a logistical challenge that'll make some people pull hair out.

but let me clarify, i don't really care about your opinion, i don't even know why i sat here and explained any of this to someone who isn't even interested - you've made up your mind, it's obvious.

[blazespinnaker]

"quite telling you can't answer my question"

let's be very clear, I wasn't pointing that at you, but rather satisfactory. it's very telling that we can't find a video that shows matching mechanics. people love to stream game videos.

[ptx0]

"quite telling you can't answer my question"

let's be very clear, I wasn't pointing that at you, but rather satisfactory. it's very telling that we can't find a video that shows matching mechanics. people love to stream game videos.

I don't watch stream videos - I just spend a few minutes when my followed streamers begin, because I've got bandwidth caps. Can't sit here searching for videos, but if you look at ImKibitz' channel, I'm sure you'll find something. I don't think you've looked too hard. I don't think it's even fair to judge a game by someone else's playthrough. I play nothing like Xterminator5, for example. you said you couldn't watch more than 35 seconds of a video of the game? I mean, I'm probably paraphrasing, but you don't sound like you know much about the game at all.

[ptx0]

I’d like to see a more performant multiplayer, one that allows a server to do simulation for the client.

just wanted to mention, not having deterministic lockstep is probably the main reason I hate Satisfactory. if you want to know how bad multiplayer can be when the server is doing all the heavy lifting, look no further than any Unreal Engine 4 based factory building game - there's only one, for a good reason. that game in megabase scale will push 100-200kB/s bandwidth on the network and stutters will cause it to crash. compare that to factorio's 4-6kB/s...

[blazespinnaker]

ask posila, who plays much Satisfactory, whether it's stolen anything from Wube, or if any of the factorio developers feel pain at Satisfactory. maybe just reference the FFF where kovarex mentions that he is glad another game exists in the factory sphere? your anger at them is just misplaced. it's yours alone, not Wube's, so I don't know where you feel justified in all of it. in the legal world, we say "you have no standing here".

Well, it is very sore loserish to whine about competition, so I'd hope they wouldn't say anything negative. the idea that competitors increase revenues is a very shaky one, but even if so, it creates terrible comparisons that all too often end up resulting in bad product direction.

as for not having standing, I infinitely disagree there. the entire player universe has standing as they have been hugely disserved by 3d graphic bloat taking attention away from investments in mechanics.

the 3d mechanics you talk about are not bad, but I really don't think speak to the logistical nature of factory games and it's not clear how they've significantly enhanced the game. the other mechanics sound nice, but seem to be fairly basic parameter based ehancements.

when satifactory can equal the dynamism and depth of perf @ scale, trains and bots and blueprints that factorio has, I'll probably get interested. i can't see it ever happening tho. the genre really doesn't have a large enough following to allow for the required budgets to handle both, afaik.

btw, if it wasn't clear, i'm really just using satisfactory as an example here. my big beef really is with 3d bloat itself.

and don't just look at it as convincing me. there are other people who read this thread. your contributions are very useful for the community at large

[blazespinnaker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sqWq3Tav4k

Some of the stacked factory building looks quite interesting, I'll say that. Build up, rather than out would be interesting and opens a whole category of emergent problems to solve. Bridges are very nice addition for sure.

Adding the ability to construct custom assemblers where you can build vertically would be a way to add 3d to factorio, but still maintain it's massive scale and gameplay. You keep all 2d maps and views and benefits of factorio + very interesting 3d problem solving which have about 90% of the game play you get with 3d.

tricky to do that and keep a unified, thematic game play, but possible I imagine.

[ptx0]

the 3d mechanics you talk about are not bad, but I really don't think speak to the logistical nature of factory games and it's not clear how they've significantly enhanced the game. the other mechanics sound nice, but seem to be fairly basic parameter based ehancements.

when satifactory can equal the dynamism and depth of perf @ scale, trains and bots and blueprints that factorio has, I'll probably get interested. i can't see it ever happening tho. the genre really doesn't have a large enough following to allow for the required budgets to handle both, afaik.

well, i don't really understand the first part. it sounds like the same thing I was saying earlier - you've made up your mind and you're just looking for fault in it instead of accepting that you don't know the depth of the game until you've played it yourself. by saying you're just using Satisfactory as an example - well, maybe you should have used an example that you've actually played before?

the second part, well.. like I said, not trying to get you interested in Satisfactory. I just think you are misinformed, since you've told me you haven't played the game, and can't stand watching videos of it because the fact that it's 3D is overwhelmingly distracting to you. pardon if I'm paraphrasing, I don't want to go get exact quotes.

what you want is for Satisfactory to reimplement all of Factorio (asking for it to have bots, blueprints, etc) and yet weren't you earlier complaining that Wube has somehow been disadvantaged/injured by their game's mere existence? god, this discussion is really all over the place. I don't think it's happening from a place of integrity. "doesn't have a big enough following"? it's the #2 (or is it #3?) game on Steam? Satisfactory sold 1.3 million copies in a month when it was released on Steam. you're speculating about budgets now?

jeez, you've totally dismissed the mechanics I've mentioned before, as though they don't relate to building a factory - how is power not a part of it? i didn't even get into the fun of building using vertical conveyor belts.. try making a skyscraper. where (on which floor) will you put which production chain? it's not so straightforward like I thought it would be.

I thought I'll just progress and build one story vertically at a time, so we've got ingots smelting at the bottom, intermediate products, and then the high tech stuff at the top.. but at some point, I was requiring a LOT of items from my ground floors and routing their belts through my 'item elevator' I'd designed in the middle of the building was.. problematic. it requires more planning and thought. (item elevator, essentially a consistently empty column that spans the entire height of the factory that i can run conveyor lifts in)

it's exactly like belt spaghetti in Factorio, because although you can clip belts through each other on a single plane (they lack collision for CPU's sake), you can't clip conveyor lifts through each other.

they're the same exact game.

[blazespinnaker]

"what you want is for Satisfactory to reimplement all of Factorio"

I didn't say re-implement, I said equal. It's probably good to give folks the benefit of the doubt when chatting with them. it really does no harm.

there are ways to equal without copying. for example, rather than going to scale outwaards like factorio, they could go inwards. have a way to create complex create factory parts which allow you to build / invent assemblers at a very fine grain. this would allow for a massive scale (in terms of complexity) factory in a smaller space.

the point is, the game is in the mechanics, not the graphics. esthetics and visuals IMHO add only very little, especially to a factory building game where invention and logistical complexity is what it's all about.

[ptx0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sqWq3Tav4k

that video is an hour long and I have no idea which part you find interesting, but here's one from our own Nilaus who tried to make a tower.

https://youtu.be/i0p8WIgDIrE

i think what you're not realising because you've not played the game is that it encourages building up, as the ground terrain is uneven and cliffs will get in the way. that's not to say there's no logistical challenges in the ones who decide to do zero vertical building. I wouldn't want to do that, personally. it would be rough. jumping down several floors is much quicker way to move than running across a field.

you think graphics aren't important, but watching Nilaus use the same mechanics that Factorio has, inside the beautiful environment, is what made me buy the expensive game as soon as it came out on Steam.

[ptx0]

I didn't say re-implement, I said equal. It's probably good to give folks the benefit of the doubt when chatting with them. it really does no harm.

there are ways to equal without copying. for example, rather than going to scale outwaards like factorio, they could go inwards. have a way to create complex create factory parts which allow you to build / invent assemblers at a very fine grain. this would allow for a massive scale (in terms of complexity) factory in a smaller space.

the point is, the game is in the mechanics, not the graphics. esthetics and visuals IMHO add only very little, especially to a factory building game where invention and logistical complexity is what it's all about.

be equal, but not reimplementing the features? so you want blueprints that aren't blueprints? bots that aren't bots?

scale... inwardly? ... why? factorio doesn't own the concept of scaling out, it's a real life thing that industries do. have you ever seen a Tesla gigafactory with its 3D conveyor belts? I don't get your beef. is it really 3D bloat? why do you hate so much that people like me, think something beautiful is worth paying for? is it because you think factorio is LESS worthy if so? that's not how it works. I love both games. I hate Satisfactory's game engine.

[blazespinnaker]

3d graphics for the sake of graphics are nice, but there is always going to be a limited budgets and tough choices in factory building games. not to mention the terrible impact on perf from physics. dynamically moving parts and rendering at scale is a huge problem which is why 3d games tend to be foggy a lot and there aren't that many moving parts.

there's a very long list of suggestions / ideas for factorio, and I've yet to see one which says "please improve graphic" for anything.

if there was a way to deliver game play features at the same rate and have 3d, than I'd have no complaint.

only in games with huge user bases like destiny, are the budgets big enough not to have to always make those choices.

compare:
satisfactory (peak 27k)
https://steamcharts.com/app/526870

factorio
(peak 34K)
https://steamcharts.com/app/427520

destiny
(peak 292K)
https://steamcharts.com/app/1085660

factory building games just don't have the budget and team sizes that can do one without sacrificing the other.

[blazespinnaker]

be equal, but not reimplementing the features? so you want blueprints that aren't blueprints? bots that aren't bots?

You can equal the depth, without plagiarizing was all I was trying to say. I gave an example off the top of my head. I'm sure there are zillions of other ways to go.

[ptx0]

there's a very long list of suggestions / ideas for factorio, and I've yet to see one which says "please improve graphic" for anything.

then you haven't looked..

[blazespinnaker]

I've looked a lot. if it's there, it's hyper rare and I doubt has that many +1

[ptx0]

the wube devs built their own game engine, certainly that took a lot of time. took factorio several years longer than satisfactory has just to come to a decent level of playability (satisfactory is almost 2 years old). 3D isn't an opportunity cost. a lot of ingenuity and performance optimisation went into factorio's sprite-driven engine.

[ptx0]

I've looked a lot. if it's there, it's hyper rare and I doubt has that many +1

all the times you shift the goalpost, it sucks. i'm out of this thread because you've ruined this discussion.

[blazespinnaker]

"3D isn't an opportunity cost"

That's tautologic. I have some experience in this area, I can assure you that's a false assumption.

Here's a reasonable good review of dev costs, there are others if you're interested - https://meliorgames.com/game-developmen ... and-costs/

As a technical example - satisfactory has no physics hitbox on its trains, they can't crash and this leads to infinite throughput and no need for managing trains by the player with signals. This is very huge part of train gameplay in factorio. Managing the 3d physics of trains at the scale factorio has would be quite a challenge.

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Railway

all the times you shift the goalpost, it sucks.

That certainly wasn't a shift in goalposts. I said I hadn't seen any. I hadn't! And just because there is an exceedingly tiny minority having some opinion, doesn't change the the opinion of the vast majority.

But really, you're looking at this all wrong. I'm not the goalie. You made some good points, I'm sure a lot of folks found them as interesting as I did. It's why I kept chatting with you

[ptx0]

As a technical example - satisfactory has no physics hitbox on its trains, they can't crash and this leads to infinite throughput and no need for managing trains by the player with signals. This is very huge part of train gameplay in factorio. Managing the 3d physics of trains at the scale factorio has would be quite a challenge.

you haven't even played the game, which is indicated here by you thinking they have infinite throughput. just plain wrong. Coffee Stain is adding signals.

[blazespinnaker]

As a technical example - satisfactory has no physics hitbox on its trains, they can't crash and this leads to infinite throughput and no need for managing trains by the player with signals. This is very huge part of train gameplay in factorio. Managing the 3d physics of trains at the scale factorio has would be quite a challenge.

you haven't even played the game, which is indicated here by you thinking they have infinite throughput. just plain wrong. Coffee Stain is adding signals.

Sorry, it's what is said on the wiki. How is it wrong?

Theoretical maximum throughput
As there is currently no hitbox for the trains, and train can clip through each other without collision, this means a busy railway can have infinite item throughput.

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Railway