Tunnel or bridges for trains

[sparr]

That ridiculous train ramp mod (Renai Transportation, which also has other novelties like power pole ziplines and throwing inserters) could be re-skinned as potentially the best tunnel or bridge mod so far.

[MEOWMI]

For completeness, I'll add this reply from yesterday's AMA on Reddit since it's relevant:

The entire collection of rail logic is built on them always colliding when built physically over each other. The underground belt logic has several extra checks all over the belt logic to make them work and has been in there for quite some time.

Retroactively adding that kind of logic to trains is just a huge-HUGE task.

via https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... a/g45d2lr/

[Koub]

[Koub] Merged into older topic on the same subject.

[ssilk]

As I see things I don’t see the difference between tunnels and bridges. Even after reading the article. Yes, you can continue building in underground, but why shouldn’t it be possible for overground? Think to the space platform.

And then Rseding’s quote about how to implement that into the current rail system: much work for medium effect.

What I see is this: an extension to have connected surfaces and see multiple surfaces in one map. This is a extension to that:

I don't know, but it sounds like it could be fun. Just make train tunnels a tier 3 research item for rails (like express transport belts) and make them super expensive. So yes, you could run a rail line underground across your entire base, but it's going to cost a huge amount of resources to produce, just like real life!

A surface is currently like “Nauvis” the surface of a planet. Mods add surfaces for other planets or add underground or space platform. So for Nauvis we could have also “Nauvis underground” and/or “Nauvis 5 meters over ground”.

So, what needs to be done to show the “bridges” surface? It is of course shifted about 5 tiles up (=5 meters higher). Anything on that surface is printed over the ground surface (maybe a bit transparent?). This works pretty fine, until you just have small things like bridges or so on that surface. With some key combination you can switch between such connected layers.

You need also entities, which connect those layers. In our case ramps (up and down) but also ladders, belt-ramps, robot-holes... those give the player also the right “feeling” - the correct immersion - not just switching between two surfaces, but that they are really connected.

That is also a lot of work, but completely different, it will add a lot more gameplay possibilities than just adding bridges or tunnels. Bridges or tunnels are just a “first implementation”, modders will like it.

And yes, from gameplay aspects the underground is then much more interesting, but just because it is possible to create that dungeon feeling. But principally the same is possible overground.

Think about having multiple surfaces bound like that. You can build “production towers”. And much, much more.

[mrvn]

Just my two cents:

I wanted to place a rail line across my base and I could do the entire line except for a few chemical plants that were in my way. I thought, if I could just tunnel under them like I could with belts, problem solved! Unfortunately there is no way to do it in 1.0.

Keeping in the spirit of laying rail lines, underground rails (could) have some constraints:

1) Tunnel has to be in a straight line, E/W or N/S. (this should save a ton of development work, maybe...)
2) Tunnel can't go underwater! (or can it?....)
3) Tunnel has a fixed maximum distance (like belts). (or does it?)

I mean laying down a curved rail line that goes under a large lake would be pretty cool, (if not horribly expensive)!

Honestly, I can see why elevated trains and train bridges are not in the game: 1) The first would add little to game play for a massive amount of work. 2) Bridges aren't needed because you can already use land fill and concrete to make a bridge!

But underground train tunnels could add a lot to the game in terms of design.

If you really wanted to go "whole hog" you could figure out a way to place underground rail lines, exactly like above ground rails (like they are in real life) and tunnel under entire cities! Maybe train tunnels are even more flexible than belts when it comes to doing stuff underground. I don't know, but it sounds like it could be fun. Just make train tunnels a tier 3 research item for rails (like express transport belts) and make them super expensive. So yes, you could run a rail line underground across your entire base, but it's going to cost a huge amount of resources to produce, just like real life!

EACH underground rail track could cost you 10 regular rail tracks + 10 steel + 100 concrete +3 pipes +1 blue chip and +1 light (or something similar). So, yes you would be able to tunnel under a lake or under a city in a late stage game, but it's going to be super expensive to do so. Exactly like real life!

Thanks again for all your hard work and have a good one! =)

peace!

A while back I suggested something really minimal for the game engine and leaving the actual implementation and heavy lifting to modders, at least at first. So here it goes:

What the game needs is a special rail entity. Similar to underground belts the rail comes in pairs, one connects to the other. Unlike underground belts the entities don't have to be on the same surface and the connection will be done through LUA. Trains will travel through the pair of entities as if they were normal rails. When they hit the end of one side they teleport to the connected pair. That's it. No more is needed on the game side.


Now for mods they can do all sorts of things with that:

1) Design a tunnel where the train simply teleports to the other side.
2) Have trains enter and leave factorissimo buildings.
3) Have tunnels that actually have an inside. This uses 2 pairs of the special rails. The first teleports the train to an underground surface where you have to build the inside of the tunnel. The second pair teleports it back out. The distance underground matches distance above ground.
4) Build tunnels with a compression factor. Like 3 but you can shorten distances underground. So moving 100m underground means you exit 1000m above ground.
5) Support train portals between worlds for mods with that sort of thing.


The special rail pair would be 2x2 large entities, just like straight rails. It's up to the mod then to design the tunnel entry and exit as some larger structure. Something like a hill with a door on one side and rails leading into it. The rails would continue inside the hill for a bit before the special rail so each locomotive, cargo wagon or fluid wagon is hidden under the hill graphics before it disappears to the other rail pair. Having the tunnel require quite some space also keeps normal rail crossings relevant. A tunnel should be expensive and the exception. Not the go-to solution for every problem. But that's really up to the mod then.

[therber2]

TL;DR

I suggest that we add bridges and tunnels to train rails for higher train throughput.

What ?

I suggest that we add bridges and tunnels to train rails for higher train throughput mainly at rail junctions / intersections and also to possibly go over and/or under factorio buildings and ground units and structures.

Rules/Specs for Bridges and Tunnels

In my mind, here are some of the basic, logical specs and restrictions a vanilla version of train bridges and tunnels should have:
[*] Tunnels can't cross
[*] Bridges can't cross
[*] Both have a limit to their max length
[*] Train speed while on a bridge or in a tunnel may be different than on regular rail.
-- By default I would say slower for the sake of game balance as a bridge or tunnel are throughput advantages.
-- However, logically thinking: a train wouldn't have the same wind resistance in a tunnel and I think would go faster....whereas, on a bridge, I would think
definitely slower being at a higher elevation (more wind), and also the real world need for speed limits on bridges as per load specifications.
-- More expensive and advanced versions of bridges should be available in the tech tree (eg. Wood bridge at the start > Steel Bridge > Steel suspension >
Tunnel bridge > Titanium bridge etc etc ... where the effective differnce between each bridge is the max speed a train can travel.
[*]Only one train allow on a bridge / in a tunnel at a time. Signals shouldn't be placed inside tunnel or on middle of bridge.

Example of Possible Use:

BEFORE:
(Total of 4 Greater than 2 point intersections)
(Total of 16 regular Intersection points)

Before Bridges and Tunnels.jpg (981.35 KiB) Viewed 2969 times

======================================================================
INTERSECTION AFTER Using 2 Bridges + 1 Tunnel:
(Total of ZERO Greater than 2 point intersections)
(Total of 10 regular Intersection points or 37.5% fewer points for jamming)

Why ?

To further expand what is possible for trains and extend the end game.

[DaleStan]

https://www.google.com/search?q=factorio+train+bridge gives me four different mods, of which I've used none, but one of those will probably do the trick. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RenaiTransportation also gives you bridge-like things.

The choices for tunnels seem to be https://mods.factorio.com/mod/traintunnels or https://mods.factorio.com/mod/railway_tunnel.

[FuryoftheStars]

https://www.google.com/search?q=factorio+train+bridge gives me four different mods, of which I've used none, but one of those will probably do the trick. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RenaiTransportation also gives you bridge-like things.

The choices for tunnels seem to be https://mods.factorio.com/mod/traintunnels or https://mods.factorio.com/mod/railway_tunnel.

Tunnels at least, last I knew, could be rather buggy because of the way they have to handle it.

[ssilk]

merged with existing topic
While doing that also removed the poll. Suggestions are per se non-democratic.

@therber2: there are missing pictures in that article, you need to upload them.

[mrvn]

The most simple and most flexible solution is still my suggestion to add a new rail type that comes in connected pairs and each can be placed anywhere on any surface and remain connected.

So the rail line on the map would end at one point with the special connected rail and pick up somewhere else with the other part of the connected rail. For the rail system the two rails are connected just like any other 2 rails and trains path right through it. The normal signal and block rules still apply, both connected rails of a pair are in the same rail block.

Obviously this would have graphics glitches if used on it's own as trains would disappear one wagon at a time when driving across the connected rail pair. But all that can be solved by a modder by providing suitable graphics for tunnel or bridge entrance and exit. There should be nothing new to add to the game engine to make this look pretty.

[therber2]

merged with existing topic
While doing that also removed the poll. Suggestions are per se non-democratic.

@therber2: there are missing pictures in that article, you need to upload them.

Hey, I think the pictures got deleted when the thread merged.
I reuploaded them to my post.

After Bridges and Tunnels with text.jpg (1.24 MiB) Viewed 2967 times

[therber2]

The most simple and most flexible solution is still my suggestion to add a new rail type that comes in connected pairs and each can be placed anywhere on any surface and remain connected.

So the rail line on the map would end at one point with the special connected rail and pick up somewhere else with the other part of the connected rail. For the rail system the two rails are connected just like any other 2 rails and trains path right through it. The normal signal and block rules still apply, both connected rails of a pair are in the same rail block.

Obviously this would have graphics glitches if used on it's own as trains would disappear one wagon at a time when driving across the connected rail pair. But all that can be solved by a modder by providing suitable graphics for tunnel or bridge entrance and exit. There should be nothing new to add to the game engine to make this look pretty.

Yeah after exploring a bunch of code and learning how the train pathing works, I agree: having trains just pass through each other without collision in a specified box which would be the "tunnel" or "bridge" seems like the path of least resistance here.

[mrvn]

The most simple and most flexible solution is still my suggestion to add a new rail type that comes in connected pairs and each can be placed anywhere on any surface and remain connected.

So the rail line on the map would end at one point with the special connected rail and pick up somewhere else with the other part of the connected rail. For the rail system the two rails are connected just like any other 2 rails and trains path right through it. The normal signal and block rules still apply, both connected rails of a pair are in the same rail block.

Obviously this would have graphics glitches if used on it's own as trains would disappear one wagon at a time when driving across the connected rail pair. But all that can be solved by a modder by providing suitable graphics for tunnel or bridge entrance and exit. There should be nothing new to add to the game engine to make this look pretty.

Yeah after exploring a bunch of code and learning how the train pathing works, I agree: having trains just pass through each other without collision in a specified box which would be the "tunnel" or "bridge" seems like the path of least resistance here.

In my suggestion there would be no "passing through". It's very similar to underground belts. The two ends of the underground belt are simply connected, the belt does not pass unseen through the space in between. Unlike underground belts the connected rails would have no buffer. So the trains teleport straight from one tile to the other.

For a realistic tunnel the inside of the tunnel would be placed on another surface. So you use 2 pairs of connected tiles. And you can make it so people and cars also teleport to inside the tunnel when they cross the entrance.

[ickputzdirwech]

[ick] Moved to Implemented in 2.0

See https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-378