pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by pyanodon »

Thanks... The issues you pointed was already solved and will be fixed in the next release.

Embrace the ashening :D
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by factoriogame1121 »

Hi all. Dear developers, please add information about the amount of ash in the object (the rights are preliminary information if you point at the object with the mouse).
In addition, as I have noticed, not every new energy object has its output power reflected.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by septemberWaves »

factoriogame1121 wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:16 pm
Hi all. Dear developers, please add information about the amount of ash in the object (the rights are preliminary information if you point at the object with the mouse).
In addition, as I have noticed, not every new energy object has its output power reflected.
You get one ash per burned fuel item. If, for example, you are burning a full belt of raw coal, you'll get a full belt of ash out. The same applies regardless of fuel density: you could use one fuel item worth 1MJ, or one fuel item worth 100MJ, both will output one ash when burned. This is helpful because it means you need exactly as many inserters to remove ash as you do to input solid fuel. Also, Helmod will account for ash production; I would suggest you install it if you are not already using it, since planning just about anything with Pyanodon's mods is far too complicated without it.

As for your second point, I'm not entirely sure what it is you mean, but if you are talking about output power of steam engines specifically, there is a key limitation: steam engines produce half power when fed 250°C steam (they still consume the steam at the same rate, just at half efficiency). Vanilla solid-fueled boilers output 250°C steam, which means that the steam (and thus the power output from the fuel) will be converted into electricity at 50% efficiency. If you want 100% efficiency using vanilla steam engines, you have to use 500°C steam (I'm fairly sure this is the output temperature of oil-fueled boilers, though I don't have the game open right now so I can't double-check). If this was not what you were referring to then I apologize, I am not sure what you meant.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by factoriogame1121 »

Thanks, I figured out the new game mechanics. It's not about that. As a player, it would be more convenient for me to quickly receive information about the amount of ash in a particular object. For example, by hovering over an object with the mouse, information panels with certain information are displayed on the right. But there is no information about the amount of accumulated ash. To find out how much of it is in an object, you have to approach the building and click on it specifically.

And as for the output power information - I mean that in some energy facilities (for example, a level 2 and 3 solar panel) there is no information about the maximum output power. Maximum. To know roughly what you can expect.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by septemberWaves »

factoriogame1121 wrote:
Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:06 pm
Thanks, I figured out the new game mechanics. It's not about that. As a player, it would be more convenient for me to quickly receive information about the amount of ash in a particular object. For example, by hovering over an object with the mouse, information panels with certain information are displayed on the right. But there is no information about the amount of accumulated ash. To find out how much of it is in an object, you have to approach the building and click on it specifically.

And as for the output power information - I mean that in some energy facilities (for example, a level 2 and 3 solar panel) there is no information about the maximum output power. Maximum. To know roughly what you can expect.
This makes more sense. These are indeed issues that I agree should be solved if possible.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by septemberWaves »

The one thing that I think is missing from PyAE is pumped storage. It would be great to have the option to create an artificial reservoir of water as a method of storing power without using accumulators. The tradeoff would be that pumped storage is cheaper than accumulators, but requires an enormous amount of space to set up for a given amount of storage. It's something that I think would fit well with the purpose of AE, and would nicely complement the new solar panels in particular.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by GluAp »

pyanodon wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:13 am
Thanks... The issues you pointed was already solved and will be fixed in the next release.

Embrace the ashening :D
Thank you for the quick fix.
I recently reached Logistic Science and have about 3M Ash in storage. Somehow I had the feeling it will be useful later ;)
At the moment I'm struggling with Rubber. I have a Vrauk->Formic Acid->Latex->Rubber Setup, that produces 0.2 Latex/Rubber per second which by far is not enough for Logistic Science but still takes quiet a lot of space.
vrauks0.png
vrauks0.png (247.91 KiB) Viewed 1940 times
I guess increasing Latex output to 1/s would have been reasonable, but this production chain would've been half the size of my factory.
So I was going for the Vrauks Mk.2 as modules and the better Cocoon recipe. Still big, but not as big as the normal recipe.
vrauks1.png
vrauks1.png (304.2 KiB) Viewed 1940 times
The Vrauk Mk.2 breeding program recipe has a Mk.2 return of 0.5%. So basically you have to do the recipe 200 times to get 1 Mk.2.
vrauks3.png
vrauks3.png (202.48 KiB) Viewed 1940 times
I'd like to suggest to change that recipe. For me it took ~650 times to get 1(!) Mk.2. I understand the principle of chance here, as it does not guarantee that 200 times will always amount to 1 Mk.2. But still it kinda sucked a little, having to wait for several hours. Maybe tuning it to use twice the amount of ingredients but having a return rate of 2% could be a bit better.

And regarding PyAE ... I was just minding my business and setting up Unslimed Iron while getting the surprise that I now don't have to save or waste the first stage pulp and everything was normal ...
Centrifuge0.png
Centrifuge0.png (370.89 KiB) Viewed 1940 times
.. when suddenly ...
Centrifuge.png
Centrifuge.png (400.47 KiB) Viewed 1940 times
... seems legit :D

Having a lot of fun so far. I'm looking forward to doing more of AE Energy. Up until now I only use geothermal which is quiet nice to have at the beginning. The first stage of power generation is the next step on the horizon, as it is more complex.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

septemberWaves wrote:
Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:25 pm
factoriogame1121 wrote:
Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:06 pm
Thanks, I figured out the new game mechanics. It's not about that. As a player, it would be more convenient for me to quickly receive information about the amount of ash in a particular object. For example, by hovering over an object with the mouse, information panels with certain information are displayed on the right. But there is no information about the amount of accumulated ash. To find out how much of it is in an object, you have to approach the building and click on it specifically.

And as for the output power information - I mean that in some energy facilities (for example, a level 2 and 3 solar panel) there is no information about the maximum output power. Maximum. To know roughly what you can expect.
This makes more sense. These are indeed issues that I agree should be solved if possible.
ok.
1. ash. its a base game engine issue. mods can not in anyway change the vanilla guis so i can not make it display ash amounts even if i wanted to.
2. solar panels should definitely show maximum output already.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by GluAp »

Hi, it's me again ^^

I was just tuning the planned Rubber build, when I discovered a positive energy loop which I believe needs rebalancing:
Pitch2Coke.png
Pitch2Coke.png (325.65 KiB) Viewed 1843 times
As you can see, there is ~8 Raw Coal (fuel value ~25MJ) as an input, -10.5MW electricity usage vs. ~31 Coke (fuel value ~155MJ) as output, that can be used in a boiler to get ~ +77MW electricity. There is even a surplus in light oil.

In general I like it. But it feels a little bit off. I'd suggest lowering the output of Coke in the Pitch->Coke recipe. Maybe to a third?
You could maybe increase the output of Light Oil, as this is usable later in Oil Burner for Steam generation and in the earlier stage gives you more Aromatics, which would be nice, too.
But I haven't thought it much, if this will break anything else.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by septemberWaves »

That's not a "positive energy loop", it's just an efficient way to process coal. Every method of processing raw coal in the game (as far as I can think of anyway) results in coal products with more total fuel value than the raw coal. This is not deriving energy from nowhere, nor is it an error.

In real life, coal can also be processed from the raw material that is extracted from the ground to a form that burns more efficiently and produces more energy (usually involving crushing it to increase surface area); if this process provided a net reduction to energy when counting the energy required to process it, it would simply never be done. No energy is magically created, it's simply a matter of allowing chemical energy that is already stored in the chemical bonds in the coal to be released and utilized more efficiently.

This process in-game is similar. You are not deriving all of this excess energy from nowhere, it is potential energy that is already stored in the raw coal. The raw coal that you mine has all of this potential energy, and the various methods of processing coal allow that potential energy to be utilized with increased efficiency.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by GluAp »

Well - somebody knows their stuff :mrgreen:

Thank you for taking the time to explain. In my head, I did know this on some level but when writing I absoluty did not think about this. Going even further - think about nuclear fusion.
So you're completly right - even the normal 3-stage PyCoal Process is like that: Raw->Grade1->Coarse->Coal
It get's you a ~2,23 times return on raw fuel value. The Hot Coke yields even more. But technically - ingame it is a positive energy process (loop is the wrong word anyway).

For arguments sake: the pitch process still has a much higher yield than the Coal process I just compared it to. And the latter is unlocked much later.
So I still stick with what I wrote - I believe it could use some tuning - but with other arguments.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by GluAp »

Hi again.

There seem to be some technologies in the full Py Suit that are empty and amount to nothing?

Heavy Oil Processing - Stage 1 doesn't do anything and does not claim to do a thing. But it is a prerequisite to Heavy Oil Processing - Stage 2.
MissingTech - HeavyOilProcessin - Stage1.png
MissingTech - HeavyOilProcessin - Stage1.png (44.84 KiB) Viewed 1516 times
Engorded Poison Sacs on the other hand does claim to improve Formic Acid, but as far as I can tell, does not change anything.
MissingTech - EngorgedPoisonSacs.png
MissingTech - EngorgedPoisonSacs.png (59.77 KiB) Viewed 1516 times
I guess, the latter should look similar to that one:
MissingTech - Microfilters.png
MissingTech - Microfilters.png (72.22 KiB) Viewed 1516 times

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by pyanodon »

youre playing a very outdated version
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by GluAp »

>> very outdated << ... so basically I'd have to start again? :lol:

Who do I have to hack, to get the new and hot stuff? :twisted:

But seriously - Mod Portal has no newer version for me. :oops:

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

pyanodon wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:56 pm
youre playing a very outdated version
He's not.
GluAp wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:25 pm
>> very outdated << ... so basically I'd have to start again? :lol:

Who do I have to hack, to get the new and hot stuff? :twisted:

But seriously - Mod Portal has no newer version for me. :oops:
The heavy oil is a known issue and being worked on.

The other 1 should have been disabled but it appears that several techs like that slipped though. They don't currently do anything as that system is getting reworked.

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by GluAp »

I see.
For completion - Advanced Rendering tech does not work, too.

I am - at the moment - in the process of understanding how some of the new energy machines / mechanics work.

VAWT & HAWT, as well as the Tidal Power Plant provide electric energy to the grid, to their respective rates (eg. 650kW, 500kW, 5MW). But they too come with Energy Capacity of 500MJ each, that does not account to grid Acumulator charge. Let's see, if I understood correctly.

When placing a Tidal Power Plant on it's own grid, it says there is a maximum production of 50MW in the grid, opposed to 5MW. So I guess, it can provide 50MW at max for 10 seconds, as 500MJ = 500Ws = 50W * 10s, if it has been charged before? I guess charging will be 100s @5MW. I just noticed that the tooltip changes from 'no power' @ constant 5MW production to 'low power' if it is charging and has no special annotation if fully charged.

So how do I use them efficiently? I could use them as an alternative to accumulators. They have high cost, but are available earlier. You need 100 Mk.1 Accumulators to store the same Energy and even more to get to the same charge/discharge rate. You get advantage of used space, too.

But I don't get how to charge them and control their behaviour. As a test I just put a Tidal Power Plant, a HAWT and a VAWT together in a grid with no electricity usage. They have a combined power output of 6.15MW and a combined Energy Capacity of 1500MJ.
The Tidal Power Plant has been charged first after exactly 100s, as expected. But the HAWT/VAWT are not charged after an additional 200s.
That tells me, each Plant uses only their own Power Prodution to charge itself. So despite beeing on the same grid, the Tidal Power Plant will take 100s, the VAWT ~700s and the HAWT 1000s to fully charge.

So what do I make out of this? :?

If I use them in a grid combined with conventional power production (boiler->steam, geothermal ..) the VAWT/HAWT/Tidal Power production will be preferred and will never charge.
To make use of the Energy Capacity I'd have to use them in specifically tailored grids, that have an average power usage below the VAWT/HAWT/Tidal Power production but have very short spikes up to 10 times of the power production. That seem's to be quiet hard to do and does not feel very rewarding to me, as I can't see the benefit. It is just so much easier to place down another row of boilers with steam buffer, or geothermal, than to estimate power grid usage or tailor it to very specific use cases.

Is my understanding here correct? Or am I missing the point somehow?

Anyhow - It was fun to figure it out.
But I really could not figure out how the Aerial Discharge Base is supposed to work.

"Place to discharge the energy collected in the atmosphere in the power grid" - "Stores electricity". Max input 0W, Max output 3MW.

No idea what to do with that one. Could you please explain how this is supposed to work?

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

GluAp wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:26 pm
I see.
For completion - Advanced Rendering tech does not work, too.

I am - at the moment - in the process of understanding how some of the new energy machines / mechanics work.

VAWT & HAWT, as well as the Tidal Power Plant provide electric energy to the grid, to their respective rates (eg. 650kW, 500kW, 5MW). But they too come with Energy Capacity of 500MJ each, that does not account to grid Acumulator charge. Let's see, if I understood correctly.

When placing a Tidal Power Plant on it's own grid, it says there is a maximum production of 50MW in the grid, opposed to 5MW. So I guess, it can provide 50MW at max for 10 seconds, as 500MJ = 500Ws = 50W * 10s, if it has been charged before? I guess charging will be 100s @5MW. I just noticed that the tooltip changes from 'no power' @ constant 5MW production to 'low power' if it is charging and has no special annotation if fully charged.

So how do I use them efficiently? I could use them as an alternative to accumulators. They have high cost, but are available earlier. You need 100 Mk.1 Accumulators to store the same Energy and even more to get to the same charge/discharge rate. You get advantage of used space, too.

But I don't get how to charge them and control their behaviour. As a test I just put a Tidal Power Plant, a HAWT and a VAWT together in a grid with no electricity usage. They have a combined power output of 6.15MW and a combined Energy Capacity of 1500MJ.
The Tidal Power Plant has been charged first after exactly 100s, as expected. But the HAWT/VAWT are not charged after an additional 200s.
That tells me, each Plant uses only their own Power Prodution to charge itself. So despite beeing on the same grid, the Tidal Power Plant will take 100s, the VAWT ~700s and the HAWT 1000s to fully charge.

So what do I make out of this? :?

If I use them in a grid combined with conventional power production (boiler->steam, geothermal ..) the VAWT/HAWT/Tidal Power production will be preferred and will never charge.
To make use of the Energy Capacity I'd have to use them in specifically tailored grids, that have an average power usage below the VAWT/HAWT/Tidal Power production but have very short spikes up to 10 times of the power production. That seem's to be quiet hard to do and does not feel very rewarding to me, as I can't see the benefit. It is just so much easier to place down another row of boilers with steam buffer, or geothermal, than to estimate power grid usage or tailor it to very specific use cases.

Is my understanding here correct? Or am I missing the point somehow?

Anyhow - It was fun to figure it out.
But I really could not figure out how the Aerial Discharge Base is supposed to work.

"Place to discharge the energy collected in the atmosphere in the power grid" - "Stores electricity". Max input 0W, Max output 3MW.

No idea what to do with that one. Could you please explain how this is supposed to work?
Literally all of that is wrong. The charging bs is just due to the the way that entity works internally. All it does is output the set MW.

Aerial base is currently disabled and is only in there as it's used in another as an ingredient

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by GluAp »

Well, is 'wrong' the right word for it?

I DID see exactly the behaviour, that was described.

2 separated grid, with fully charged PyAE Plants: (no status indicator in tooltip)
AE Power 01.png
AE Power 01.png (3.72 MiB) Viewed 1319 times
Just connected both grids: (yellow 'low power' status indicator in tooltip)
AE Power 02.png
AE Power 02.png (2.7 MiB) Viewed 1319 times
Charge runs empty: (red 'no power' status indicator in tooltip)
AE Power 03.png
AE Power 03.png (2.63 MiB) Viewed 1319 times
So we could find way's to exploit that behaviour. But I take your answer as a sign that this is not intended

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by LaUr3nTiU »

I see that boilers/machines using coke stacks instead of just coke do not produce Ash. I think this is a bug, right?

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Re: pY Alternative Energy - Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

LaUr3nTiU wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:26 pm
I see that boilers/machines using coke stacks instead of just coke do not produce Ash. I think this is a bug, right?
Sounds like it but we don't have any "coke stacks" so sounds like it's a mod compatibility issue

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