PY POWER ANALISIS

[immortal_sniper1]

Since i recently finished my power calculator i decided to make a thread related to power kingmaker for people in need of help .

https://github.com/immortal-sniper1/py-power-calculator here is the calculator.

Feel free to post questions in this thread related to power and maybe some setups.

[error0664]

*like*

do you plan to add py FE to calculator? for critical-steam / pressured-steam (1000/2000/3000/4000/5000 temperatures using) used in py-turbine (1.5 efficiency)

i did an extract of combustions and their main ingredients

Code: Select all

PY
    "coalgas-combustion",               "coal-gas",                                    temp = 500  (*)
    "coalslurry-combustion",            "coal-slurry",                                 temp = 550
    "syngas-combustion",                "syngas",                                      temp = 600  (*)
    "diborane-combustion",              "diborane",                                    temp = 600
    "heavy-oil-combustion",             "heavy-oil",                                   temp = 500
    "light-oil-combustion",             "light-oil",                                   temp = 550
    "petgas-combustion",                "petroleum-gas",                               temp = 600
    "methanol-combustion",              "methanol",                                    temp = 650
    "acetylene-combustion",             "acetylene",                                   temp = 670
    "refsyngas-combustion",             "refsyngas",                                   temp = 700
    "combustion-olefin",                "olefin", "nichrome"                           temp = 700
    "olefin-combustion",                "olefin", "hydrogen"                           temp = 750
    "diesel-combustion",                "diesel", "fuelrod-mk01"                       temp = 800
    "gasoline-combustion",              "gasoline", "fuelrod-mk01"                     temp = 850
    "supercritical-combustion",         "light-oil", "refsyngas", "coal-briquette"     temp = 900  (*)
    "ultrasupercritical-combustion",    "petroleum-gas", "refsyngas","coal-briquette"  temp = 1000 (*)
    
pyHT 
    "methane-combustion",               "methane"                                      temp = 550
    "benzene-combustion",               "benzene"                                      temp = 520
    "tall-oil-combustion",              "tall-oil"                                     temp = 600
        
pyPH (petrol handling)
    "scrude-combustion",                "scrude"                                       temp = 500    
    "crude-oil-combustion",             "crude-oil"                                    temp = 500  (**)
    "lubricant-combustion",             "lubricant"                                    temp = 520
    "naphtha-combustion",               "naphtha"                                      temp = 600
    "aromatics-combustion",             "aromatics"                                    temp = 670
    "fuel-oil-combustion",              "fuel-oil"                                     temp = 800  (**)
    
pyRO
    "hydrogen-combustion",              "hydrogen"                                     temp = 520
    "kerosene-combustion",              "hydrogen", "kerosene"                         temp = 800
    "fuelrodmk02-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk02"                     temp = 800
    "fuelrodmk03-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk03"                     temp = 850  (*)
    "fuelrodmk04-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk04"                     temp = 900  (*)
    "fuelrodmk05-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk05"                     temp = 950  (*)

pyPH + RO
    "xylenol-combustion",               "xylenol"                                      temp = 600

where (*) my personal progression (most others only to burn byproduct overflow)
(**) crude oil to fuel oil is very easy 2:1 process resulting in early 800 combustions available; mostly infinite if played without special mods so this is my go-to combustion
(i am currently at 800 fuel oil in my playthrough)

[immortal_sniper1]

*like*

do you plan to add py FE to calculator? for critical-steam / pressured-steam (1000/2000/3000/4000/5000 temperatures using) used in py-turbine (1.5 efficiency)

i did an extract of combustions and their main ingredients

Code: Select all

PY
    "coalgas-combustion",               "coal-gas",                                    temp = 500  (*)
    "coalslurry-combustion",            "coal-slurry",                                 temp = 550
    "syngas-combustion",                "syngas",                                      temp = 600  (*)
    "diborane-combustion",              "diborane",                                    temp = 600
    "heavy-oil-combustion",             "heavy-oil",                                   temp = 500
    "light-oil-combustion",             "light-oil",                                   temp = 550
    "petgas-combustion",                "petroleum-gas",                               temp = 600
    "methanol-combustion",              "methanol",                                    temp = 650
    "acetylene-combustion",             "acetylene",                                   temp = 670
    "refsyngas-combustion",             "refsyngas",                                   temp = 700
    "combustion-olefin",                "olefin", "nichrome"                           temp = 700
    "olefin-combustion",                "olefin", "hydrogen"                           temp = 750
    "diesel-combustion",                "diesel", "fuelrod-mk01"                       temp = 800
    "gasoline-combustion",              "gasoline", "fuelrod-mk01"                     temp = 850
    "supercritical-combustion",         "light-oil", "refsyngas", "coal-briquette"     temp = 900  (*)
    "ultrasupercritical-combustion",    "petroleum-gas", "refsyngas","coal-briquette"  temp = 1000 (*)
    
pyHT 
    "methane-combustion",               "methane"                                      temp = 550
    "benzene-combustion",               "benzene"                                      temp = 520
    "tall-oil-combustion",              "tall-oil"                                     temp = 600
        
pyPH (petrol handling)
    "scrude-combustion",                "scrude"                                       temp = 500    
    "crude-oil-combustion",             "crude-oil"                                    temp = 500  (**)
    "lubricant-combustion",             "lubricant"                                    temp = 520
    "naphtha-combustion",               "naphtha"                                      temp = 600
    "aromatics-combustion",             "aromatics"                                    temp = 670
    "fuel-oil-combustion",              "fuel-oil"                                     temp = 800  (**)
    
pyRO
    "hydrogen-combustion",              "hydrogen"                                     temp = 520
    "kerosene-combustion",              "hydrogen", "kerosene"                         temp = 800
    "fuelrodmk02-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk02"                     temp = 800
    "fuelrodmk03-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk03"                     temp = 850  (*)
    "fuelrodmk04-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk04"                     temp = 900  (*)
    "fuelrodmk05-combustion",           "hydrogen", "fuelrod-mk05"                     temp = 950  (*)

pyPH + RO
    "xylenol-combustion",               "xylenol"                                      temp = 600

where (*) my personal progression (most others only to burn byproduct overflow)
(**) crude oil to fuel oil is very easy 2:1 process resulting in early 800 combustions available; mostly infinite if played without special mods so this is my go-to combustion
(i am currently at 800 fuel oil in my playthrough)

1 FE is a nice idea but then ill need to fix my JavaScript first since the power to flow atm doesn't work well , so yes in the future
1.1 if i remember well i had a excel caldulatorr for required ratios for that
2 i already started a table with all mixes and temperatures but it s tedious work and i get bored fast
3 FUEL ROD POWER IS EXTREMELY WASTEFUL !!!!
4 why use coal-gas when u can make syngas? , unless super early game
5 fuel oil gives 50% more for a minimal processing so unless desperate don't burn crude directly
6

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    "supercritical-combustion",         "light-oil", "refsyngas", "coal-briquette"     temp = 900  (*)

it is 950 actualy
7 hydrogen is great for standalone power from water BUT it is large and low power, relatively , i use it to power my power
8 why use fuel oil if u can use there 3

Code: Select all

    "heavy-oil-combustion",             "heavy-oil",                                   temp = 500
    "light-oil-combustion",             "light-oil",                                   temp = 550
    "petgas-combustion",                "petroleum-gas",                               temp = 600

combined the yeald is much better but it is also productivity friendly , NOTE CRACKING IS NOT WORTH IT

[immortal_sniper1]

3 more things:
1 FE is in a precarious position atm since the cost to run it is very high and the power made is not that great in comparison to the resources used
the cost of Mo ore and vanadium and diamonds is very high , yes vanadium from PA is easy since now u have power but this and a few other things cut a lot of thee profit and it got indirectly nerfed recently a few times not sure if on purpose by py or not [productivity in He productivity in antimatter and its fusion and some PA nerfs] , also cooling is super hard if not impossible because of the flow needed

2 FE is best in groups since the waste from one is fuel for the other so a calculator might need to have multiple inputs

3 all recipes are great since sometimes u make something on site and get some combustible waste and it can be but to use , like my xyleton from tailings that are all made locally, in the nikel chain , or syngas from glycerol when the oleo glycerol consumption is not proportional

PS: make sure to isolate with transfer accu the nets that have some local power in them
atm i work on a transformer mod but it is still work in progress

[error0664]

good comments to consider!

maybe misleading -> (*) is not my recommendation or what i belive is an optimal way -> it is more what i did so far and plan to do (i also keep some non optimal chains as things might change)

4 why use coal-gas when u can make syngas? , unless super early game

exactly -> only for super early game (was my first step into combustion)


any suggestion of a good way to convert byproducts to energy?
what i am puzzeling with is: if i convert byproducts to combustion mixture - how do i ensure that my byproduct combustion is used up first (to not have any tailback on liquids)
if i use 2 power geration sites (one consumes byproduct combustion, the other one consumes dedicated produced combustion), power grid levels out usage of both sites
if i turn off my main power generation to fully consume byproduct, then there is not enough power from one site

[immortal_sniper1]

good comments to consider!

maybe misleading -> (*) is not my recommendation or what i belive is an optimal way -> it is more what i did so far and plan to do (i also keep some non optimal chains as things might change)

4 why use coal-gas when u can make syngas? , unless super early game

exactly -> only for super early game (was my first step into combustion)


any suggestion of a good way to convert byproducts to energy?
what i am puzzeling with is: if i convert byproducts to combustion mixture - how do i ensure that my byproduct combustion is used up first (to not have any tailback on liquids)
if i use 2 power geration sites (one consumes byproduct combustion, the other one consumes dedicated produced combustion), power grid levels out usage of both sites
if i turn off my main power generation to fully consume byproduct, then there is not enough power from one site

easy separate the power networks with transfer accumulators , main power will be used last so everything local is used first

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any suggestion of a good way to convert byproducts to energy?

depends on what u want to get rid off , sometimes 1-2 production steps are advised to get some more out of it , also use tailings for nexelite not power since nexelite is expensive to get otherwise

[immortal_sniper1]

added FE to C++

[Cadde]

5 fuel oil gives 50% more for a minimal processing so unless desperate don't burn crude directly

Huh? Am i missing something here?

Using just crude and fuel oil in the calcs... I.E, not other processing.

Crude -> Combustion mix 1:1 ratio at 50% temperature = 0.5
Crude -> Fuel Oil 2:1 ratio = 0.5 -> Combustion mix 3:2 ratio at 80% temperature = 0.5*1.5*0.8 = 0.6

Using fuel oil is just a 20% increase?

Which brings me to the whole subject of Oil sand... All the processing one does on the lowest tiers actually COSTS energy overall to bring oil sand to fuel oil for burning via shale oil.
I haven't checked all possible routes but they all tend towards costing 110% of the energy produced with fuel oil with only minimal byproducts and a great deal of expense in inputs and floor space.
Even if i only look at turning oil sand into anything useful, i find the expense in energy far outweighs the gains. It costs less to just generate fawogae out of water and turn that into combustibles.

As it currently stands, i don't even see the point in touching oil sands... Would be better to spread wide on the map and just hunt crude wells.

Would greatly appreciate it if someone could point out the flaws in my thinking? Mind you, i am only on Science 2 at the moment so early game.
But i am looking at expanding my power generation and wanted to go for fuel oil but can't meet demands with just the crude wells i have so i wanted to process all those oil sands.

[immortal_sniper1]

5 fuel oil gives 50% more for a minimal processing so unless desperate don't burn crude directly

Huh? Am i missing something here?

Using just crude and fuel oil in the calcs... I.E, not other processing.

Crude -> Combustion mix 1:1 ratio at 50% temperature = 0.5
Crude -> Fuel Oil 2:1 ratio = 0.5 -> Combustion mix 3:2 ratio at 80% temperature = 0.5*1.5*0.8 = 0.6

Using fuel oil is just a 20% increase?

Which brings me to the whole subject of Oil sand... All the processing one does on the lowest tiers actually COSTS energy overall to bring oil sand to fuel oil for burning via shale oil.
I haven't checked all possible routes but they all tend towards costing 110% of the energy produced with fuel oil with only minimal byproducts and a great deal of expense in inputs and floor space.
Even if i only look at turning oil sand into anything useful, i find the expense in energy far outweighs the gains. It costs less to just generate fawogae out of water and turn that into combustibles.

As it currently stands, i don't even see the point in touching oil sands... Would be better to spread wide on the map and just hunt crude wells.

Would greatly appreciate it if someone could point out the flaws in my thinking? Mind you, i am only on Science 2 at the moment so early game.
But i am looking at expanding my power generation and wanted to go for fuel oil but can't meet demands with just the crude wells i have so i wanted to process all those oil sands.

first im not sure what version u use and i am sure i use a older version
second the power math is not done with %temperature use my calculator u u want to know the exact walues
third for power use tar to syngas if u want tomething cheep and esy to build and dont forget to burn that H2 too
or make some water power but that is super low density at tech 2

AND i will check agin the fuel oil process

[Cadde]

first im not sure what version u use and i am sure i use a older version

CoalProcessing 1.4.3
PetroleumHandling 1.3.0
And all other pymods around those versions.

second the power math is not done with %temperature use my calculator u u want to know the exact walues

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p= flow*(temp-15)*k[T]

Flow is irrelevant as flow is directly related to temperature and thus power output vs consumption, temperature is dependant on the mix, tier is irrelevant as it's just a bonus to efficiency.
I am of course talking about how much potential energy you get from refining crude to fuel oil and then to combustion mixture vs plain crude to combustion mixture.

third for power use tar to syngas if u want tomething cheep and esy to build and dont forget to burn that H2 too

That is what i am doing currently yes. But it would be "silly" to keep building the same design over and over again. I wanted to make something more potent for the future until i can get to better power generation solutions.
If syngas is the best combustion mixture of them all then that just confirms that the alternatives aren't potent enough. And for the sake of not completely ruining early game, i would say fuel oil should be either twice as potent or cost half as much to make from all sources.

I wanted to pick the most efficient solution but after a whole day of calculations all i've figured out so far is that any form of fuel oil from anything other than straight crude is a net NEGATIVE energy production. Where the common syngas path is basically FREE energy as long as you are ready to invest in the space it takes and making sure all excess byproducts are dealt with. Personally i prefer not wasting any byproducts.

EDIT: I decided to check the viability of oil sands only looking to produce the most useful products, and this is essentially what one gets...

10 crude, 23 aromatics, 0.13 tailings dust and 0.33 stone.

At the cost of...

2 oil sand, 81.66 steam (165 deg), 60.5 water, 0.33 chromium, 16.66 hydrogen and 90.51 tailings (dirty water).
And using 2.6 MW of power.

Meanwhile, i could get 10 crude from an oil well at the cost of 90 kW of power. Sure, the oil well runs out but so does oil sand.

So yeah, fuel oil is a 20% increase in potency compared to crude. But getting crude from anywhere other than oil wells is pretty much pointless.
The only other option for crude is tailings. But i am using all that tailings for nexelit at the moment.

EDIT #2: So i decided to calculate crude from tailings. And here's what i got...

400 crude, 240 olefins, half a borax and half a niobium, 186 tailings, 192 flue gas, 320 saline water, 37.24 tailings dust, 27.93 coarse fraction (can be used to reduce stone cost and refine into other useful elements)

At the cost of...

93.1 stone, 2613 water and 7.7 MW of energy.

Conclusion, stone is worth more than oil sand in every way.
And stone is STILL the best way to get saline water / salt short of having salt mines.

Getting rid of all the olefins actually becomes a problem.

[immortal_sniper1]

yes syngas with oxygen and productivity is the cheapest way
BUT ther are builds that make power from water too
and atm i use a crude oil build that outputs 5.7GW from crude (advanced recipes)

getting lots of power is one thing getting power cheaply is another and getting it in a small ares is a third one

and yes tar from stone is the best way to get power atm

fusion is not economical
vanilla nuclear is cheep to run but ups HEAVY
py nuclear is super bad negative maybe

diesel power house mix might be a good choice
so realistically there are just a few choices : syngas ; H2 as waster or some low density cheep power ; Loil Hoil Pgas both versions ; diesel , kerosene and oleo maybe ;

[immortal_sniper1]

sand oil is crude oil positive now and as a consequence it is also one of the best ways to get syngas

[Cadde]

Much much better!

What route to syngas would that be?

[immortal_sniper1]

Much much better!

What route to syngas would that be?

the hot syngas route from bitumen

[immortal_sniper1]

with the pyFE update here are the ratios and prices:
temperature number of reactors
1k 3
2k 4
3k 1

if you want to use the 4k recipe too here are the ratios , [NOTE:it is X3 the setup above for 1 reactor at 4k ] :
temperature number of reactors
1k 9
2k 12
3k 3
4k 1

gere is the price per GW for the 1 2 3 k setup no productivity in the chains[NOTE it is greatly reduced compared to the past but still not that cheep]:

[immortal_sniper1]

so atm i can say fusion is viable if u want to use it but not by far the most economical way to make power but now it is at lest viable
as a side note: maybe using tholens to get He-3 and using the 3k recipe might be more economical but you will be using a lot of power for that He-3

[immortal_sniper1]

this is a post about syngas power after productivity was removed from syngas and coalgas;

1000 syngas without modules : 200 tar and 1200 H2 waste
1000 syngas with 2 mk3 prod modules in syngas and in coalgas ; 47.5 tar and 1000 H2 waste

so as we can see the tar needed is like X5 more then with prod

so i did a look in the other syngas recipes:
cal dust - NO
coalbed - NO but somewhat better then coaldust
flue - NO
H oil maybe but it uses chrome and the Hoil is better used for power directly
natural gas - YES BUT you must get the gas via mining other then that dont use it
tholens - for power no for small amount here and there yes but very impractical and power heavy if you are to make large scale setups
organics - NO but if you make ref syngas it is viable but also needss a lot of nexeleite
glycerol - only as a way to get rid of excess
oleo same -as above tho if you want to spend a little nichrome and use MASSIVE farminf it might work
bitume via hot syngas -YES 800 bitumen is 1000 syngas but the bitumen itself is hard to get so unless it is from oil sand it is not so practical


so tar practically remains the best way to get syngas to its power making power got reduced a lot for late game setups

[ShadowGlass]

There are two CoalGas>SynGas recipes in the Gasifier. One with Oxygen, one without. Only the one with Oxygen got nerfed. The recipe without Oxygen can still use prod modules, so in late game that's actually better, which is kinda weird.

[BlueTemplar]

Was the More SynGas with Oxygen recipe ever worth it ?
(assuming that you weren't swimming in Oxygen AND were swimming in Hydrogen, and so had to produce O2 via Electrolysis...)

[immortal_sniper1]

Was the More SynGas with Oxygen recipe ever worth it ?
(assuming that you weren't swimming in Oxygen AND were swimming in Hydrogen, and so had to produce O2 via Electrolysis...)

yes it was 70 vs 100 also if you were to use it for power you get extra power from the H2