My Deathworld Marathon Factory

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fencingsquirrel
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My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

So, I heard playing with default biters was essentially impossible. Naturally, this meant I had to try it on Deathworld marathon. First attempt was a complete failure: simply ran out of copper, and just was taking too much time. Tried again, and took what I learned to choose a better map seed as well.

And it turns out... yes. Yes it's possible. After 40 hours, I just researched landmines and should have the metals left to expand.
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Initial Map seed: 1489621797 (most are impossible, here's one if you want to try it out)

I chose this seed despite the ridiculous proximity to biters making the starting iron unmineable and only allowing a single coal miner. Simply put, finding a good amount of claimable resources was pretty tough, so beggers can't be choosers. Far more important was making sure I had enough resources to get to landmines and (eventually) rocket launchers. This map had plenty of all metals, as well as an easily claimable copper, iron and quartz expansion.


Eventually over time it turned into this monstrosity (which may or may not resemble the cheat from homestar runner):
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Disgusting.jpg
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PoorPlanning.jpg
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Current resources:


Copper: 900k/1.6M starting, Level 1, Not worried
Starting with a lot of copper was important since you can't really atomize it. However, since I started with such a gigantic amount, I didn't really bother adding borax

Iron: ~200k/1M Level 1.5, Not worried
Iron was quickly depleting until I researched level 2. Simply adding the molten steel recipe and nothing is pretty much quadrupled the efficiency, and I'm running almost entirely on atomized shrooms at this point. If I ever run out I can just add more shrooms. There's technically the 350k starting resrouces but they're still like 3 chunks away from biters

Coal: 9M/11M Level 1 raw coal, level 0 coke Not Worried
Not worried in the slightest about coal. Eventually plan on going auog generators for infinite energy and convert my biomass to raw coal.

Titanium: 150k/~370k Level 1. Dangerously low
Titanium is a slight issue currently. My next research will be level 2 titanium, and I plan on just using the ball mill only recipe. There is a large titanium island in the northwest, so when I get rockets, I should be good. Worst comes to worst, I could go the full monte on titanium, but that required a ton of space

Tin: 80k/~160k Level 1. Moderately low
Level 2 tin will be the research right after titanium, and because it's very easy to complete the full path, I should have enough. It's also easily atomizable, at the cost of titanium for aoug cages to get meat.

Lead: Butt tons. Not very useful in deathworld pyanodon ironically.

Salt: Currently only using salt for desulfurization for explosives. There's enough for like a million rockets and landmines, no issue here

Aluminum: Plenty, and if I run out before capturing the aluminum patch, I can always get more from soot.

Biomass: I get all my biomass from ash->logs->compost. Filtrating flue gas for ash made this basically infinite, lots of gassifying tar and coal gas also helped.

Stone: All of my jaw crushes make a bunch of stone. It's not enough for hot air everywhere, so I only use that for glass. I could get more, but.... eh.

Zinc/chromium/nickel/niobium/etc, none of these honestly matter since you only need a few bars, but total lack of any zinc makes me sad. Processing niobium is a long term goal that I might get around to but might not really.


Biters:

Biter defense was entirely Pollution deletion for most of the game.

There's basically a few discrete stages of biter levels for this kind of run:

Stage 0: Squatting. Simply put, plopping buildings down discourages biters from expanding near you. My first iron, copper and quartz mines were actually on top of non-starter plots. Lots of jogging, much sadness.

Stage 1: Fencing: This time expanding fencing to essentially claim a large amount of area for building. A complete fence isnt needed, large gaps are fine. Your're not blocking anything, just discouraging expansion chunks. Not a huge priority to get this done really, so after botany probably.

From here on out the pollution cloud cannot touch the biters. Ever. Not once.

Stage 2: Pre-Military 2. This is basically a race against time for when the biters decide your factory is the best expansion candidate. Unfortunately, it's a race where you have no idea when the deadline is. My guess is ~50 hours, but honestly, it's pretty random. Simply put, if a single big biter attacks it will destroy the whole factory, there is nothing you can do. Thankfully, I reached this as early 23 hours in. Getting here is a major milestone that means you have a good chance of making it. You can't establish a perimeter aside from layered poor man's fences but you can at least chuck some grenades and drop some turrets before you whole factory is destroyed.

Stage 3: Pre-landmines. It's a long road to landmines, so it's a good idea to get any tech you absolutely need beforehand, like iron level 2 or coal processing 2 or whatever. Once you have landmines, you can establish a perimeter fully, easily, so it's just a matter of not running out of resources until you get rocket launchers at this point.

Stage 4: Rocket launchers. Basically victory.


Currently I suffered 4 attacks:

#1: Freak accident with pollution at evolution 0.27. Thankfully, no medium biters. Pistol goes pew pew.

#2-3: Random attacks that mysteriously vanished after a few destroyed buildings at the southern portion. If I had to hazard a guess, they were pathing through the factory on their way to an expansion or something. The first one could have ended the factory if it had a big biter but the second I would have had piercing rounds to stop it.

#4. Really dumb, was expanding fencing without zooming out and got in range of expansion biters. Nearly died because I thought fish healed you lmao. Big biters take a LONG time to die with turrets using red science piercing rounds, so I had to merry go round a while until I was at 10% health when the biter finally died. Panicked and completely forgot I had grenades lol.

Promptly made some dried meat afterwards




Research:



Hard to say what the best path is but I went something like this:

-Coal processing and low hanging fruit: obvious

-Energy/cooling towers/ fuild storage, raw coal, no coke, though. I hybridized combustion and boilers with crushed coal tech mostly, but left a bunch of coal destruction for syngas.

-Botany: Holy crap do you have to chop down a bunch of trees on marathon. Thousands. Wow.

-Iron1: Duh

-Quartz1: More science

-Genetics: Boron trioxide for quicker red science

-Everything needed for green science: Get military 2

-Finish up most useful red science

-Iron 2

-Landmines: I chose landmines instead of flamethrowers, since mines + rockets allows you to expand whereas flamethrower turrets + rockets... is technically possible but such a PITA.


Logistics:

Word of caution to anyone who tries this. You will be doing a LOT of hand dropping stuff into chests. Half the belts you do use will need to share 2 resources. Pre-Iron1, you can't even use ANY long distance belts. e.g. For this map seed, I had to hand cart all the quartz in the southeast all the way to the mid-west glassworks.

It's not as bad as it sounds, though, since the more you overproduce on early resources in a chain, the more they accumulate. Case in point: I now only have to plop coke/bricks/petridishes/agar/titanium/steel/etc around the factory every 2 hours or so.

Okay it's pretty bad, but it's routine. Someday I'll get trains and have beautiful cargo wagons on double headed trains with multiple filtered items all sharing a single main line. But I'll get bored before that probably.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by BlueTemplar »

Wow, super impressive, congrats !

You *can* deal with blue biters by forcing them to despawn and/or using a sacrificial turret/radar. (Though it's possible that expansion parties use a different logic ?)

Ah yeah, I can see how by *really* doubling down on the pollution absorption aspect you could completely prevent pollution from reaching the nests !

I'm wondering about your choice of weapons though : crawdad is late red science, and also explosives themselves that are needed for landmines or rockets are quite expensive and quite a bit more further down the tech tree than flame turret ? (Which can be used to attack nests too, ones with big blue worms are still very doable, helps a lot once it gets a bit too... crowded for crawdad !) (Flame turrets themselves further down than grenades of course.)

More on pY and biters here :
viewtopic.php?f=219&t=98440
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fencingsquirrel
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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

Flamethrower vs landmines I is pretty subjective I think, there's a lot of leeway actually (most of the run I think is mostly up to luck: Do the biters expand into you or not). There's another reason I didn't mention, though: What if you screw up? In a normal DW Marathon game, you'll have laser's backing you up to patch things up if behemoths show up and they somehow get through. There's none of that here, so you'd probably use landmines anyways.

I guess you could do flamethrowers first and then landmines, but I guess I'm lazy, and figured if I had piercing rounds I'd make it either way.

Regarding crawdad: Honestly just didn't have any experience with it. I've played Py with everything but AL before but these actually were my first Full suite games. I've heard something about crawdad in passing, but without knowing what it does, I just assumed it'd be like a tank, which I didn't think would be very effective. Just for fun I was seeing if I could do this without dying either, so suicide ramming was out.

Regarding expansion parties: yeah I think they do use different logic. Like I said, somehow I had two "mysterious hit and run" attacks that blew up a dozen buildings and then stopped by the time I arrived with nothing to be found, and I've never seen that with pollution-based attacks. Couldn't really say what was going on there, perhaps knowing what happened would make this kind of run a lot easier.

Edit: I also forgot to mention, I have a salt mine for desulfurization, so I've got plenty of sulfur for explosives. Nearly filled a wooden chest with it by the time I started pumping 'em out :D Specifically I was using an fts reactor to turn tar(aromatics)/tailings into crude oil, then using the final petroleum to directly turn into sulfur rather than desulfurizing that.

OOOoh, and maybe the crawdad could be used not offensively but defensively? That would mean you just need to get that instead of piercing rounds which would make this a lot easier. I'll have to play around with it, never built it before.

Edit: Okay the crawdad officially kicks ass. Yeah screw the rocket launcher haha. That definitely saves a ton of metal.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by BlueTemplar »

IIRC it was not only the extra techs and sulfur that made explosives expensive for me, but also the required skin ?
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fencingsquirrel
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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

Hmm, the vanilla explosives recipe that you get for researching explosives isn't disabled, so it's just coal + sulfur = explosive. There's an additional explosives recipe that makes them in batches of 5, but I'm just using the simpler one. Maybe my files are corrupted or something. I don't recall that recipe being available with everything but alien life, so it is odd that I can use it with all of the mods available.

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by Necronium »

Im pretty sure that there isnt vanilla explosive recipe in py suite unless you play without pyHT I think. Cause coal and sulphur recipe in py version needs also at least collagen which in turn needs skin and acetic acid and both can be PITA at the beggining especialy when you dont have enough chrome for acid. But other than that it looks impressive

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

Edit: It turns out it's a bug with expensive recipes. Mystery solved :) So if you play deathworld marathon you mercifully get a simpler explosion recipe. Probably the only such bug as there aren't many expensive vanilla items in pyanodons that don't use completely disabled ingredients.

I ended up switching to flamethrowers anyways at 0.84 evolution, but the landmines were super useful for attacking nests in a crawdad. Ramming alone is great when it's mostly small worms, not so great when it's big worms.

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by BlueTemplar »

Right, that's why I don't even try expensive recipes when modded, playing with 50%/50%/50% resources instead...
(In vanilla, Marathon is exactly 8x more expensive in iron and copper for Red + Green science, and 0.5×0.5×0.5=1/8.)

Though I guess I should try 8x science cost sometimes, or mixing them both...
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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

Yeah science multiplier with deathworld would probably make this more stable. Too late now, though, pyanodons is a bit too grindy to restart. That said I managed to get enough skin from fish before behemoths for explosives that it might make more sense to use the glycerol recipe anyways. Dear lord you need such a huge fish farm for urea. Maybe I should've stuck with liquid manure.

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

The saga continues...

Currently working on energy drink as my first py science tech on advice from blue templar. Worst case scenario, the flamethrower is too dangerous and I need to use the rocket launcher with energy drink.
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Turns out the main things I was expecting to run out of weren't at all what I should have been concerned with: I was able to capture one of each major metal plot for every common metal before behemoths. They aren't really running out and it turns out "excavation 2" tech is extremely paltry amounts of blue science, enough to use the vat brain to get if I need it.

Actual resource problems:

-Glass is taking ridiculous amounts of space on account of the huge amounts of pure sand needed and currently no easy ability to get it to the glassworks, too much shipping for bots to handle. Future plans are to get quartz 2 via vat brain maybe, which would cut down the sand needs to like 3%

-Coal is an extreme problem, despite having multiple renewable sources. The only space/resource efficient one seems to be biomass processing into reformerm which I'm using. Requires a fair amount of quartz and a tiny amount of rare earth ores that cannot be regained until blue science, though.

The two main sources of coal consumption are fluids (tar/gas/syngas/aromatics/etc) and coke. Red Hot Coke straight up needs tons of raw coal, nothing I can do about it, but I've been shifting into getting other sources for the rest. Namely:

--Refined syngas: Coolbed/methane using sand extracted stone for the ridiculous hot air requirements
--Tar, coal gas, syngas: Massive tar drilling using niobium drill heads and drilling fluid 2. Converting to coal/syngas via gassifying. This is actually making so much ash that I should be turning it into brick via ash->rich clay->brick, which might allow more coalbed methane drilling.

--Aromatics: Initially tried oleochemicals w/ mukmoux, but the lard takes too much space. Been mostly switching to ralesia + fawogae, but it still mostly comes from tar until I actually build it.

-Salt ran out almost immediately, so I've been drilling for saline and evaporating it.

-Urea moved from fish to liquid manure, after 30 fish pools it was pretty obvious I should've done the math to find this isn't a good source of urea. Decent source of guts, though.

-Plastics got upgraded to the crude oil->naptha/btx->ethylene/benzene->plasticsx20 which is very nice.

Logistics-wise, I also thought I would use trains with multiple filters, but there wasn't any room for stations really, so I resorted to extreme spaghetti + bot swarm, no trains at all. Low volume fluids ended up being barreled and botted out. One giant big happy bot network. (well two, the northeast mining area needed to be split cause the bots kept getting killed)


Also, this is what pyanodons looks like without a main bus/trains:
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kingarthur
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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by kingarthur »

Thats some Nice pasta

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by BlueTemplar »

Hmm, what caused so many spaghetti belts though ?

No super-neat bus doesn't mean that you have to go «full spag» ?
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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

Mostly just lack of space really. Also spaghetti is fun :) Thankfully circuit2s weren't as bad as I was expecting, so I should be able to get out and crush some nests soon, though.

I also solved my coal problems with neocleosynthesis coalx60- thanks to that too:, the combustion mk2s give quite a lot more energy efficiency.

Btw, am I missing something or do you need a <<ton>> of blue science before you can get rare earth ores renewable? To get phadai carapaces it seems like you need all of the following:

-Land animals 2 + phadais
-Coal provessing 3 + mining machines 3 + iron processing 3 (super steel)
-Chitin processing + biotech 3 (cobalt processing for super steel)
-Atomizing 3

-Whatever gives high tech circuit boards and great alien samples (edit: ugh, that's like 20 extra techs)
Yikes. I completely stopped biomass processing after reading all that, it's worthless if it uses the one resource I can't really get easily.


Rare earths seem like the one resource that I can't get via excavation 2, nucleosynthesis, or atomizing, so that's the main drive for expansion atm.

Luckily i can at least phytomine the cobalt, though.

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by smick »

That's very impressive. How aggressive are the bugs?

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by fencingsquirrel »

Honestly not particularly: intially, you just prevent most of the attacks with anti-pollution, then you pollute as much as you want once you have the military science turret of choice. Surprisingly, after those first two oddball expansion attacks I think I went like 40 hours before the another attack. I would've expected some behemoth worms to trash some walls but I guess I'm just lucky so far. One nice thing about deathworlds in the long run I guess is you expand right to the border of the nests so they tend not to find your walls to be expansion targets since they're too close.

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Re: My Deathworld Marathon Factory

Post by pyanodon »

very impressive. :oops: :oops:
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