NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

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NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Mod Info:
Many people take a strategy of "if it's green and not an assembling machine, tier 3, destroy it. If it's not covered in concrete, make it so. If it moves and is not electric, make it stop." A strategy of "oh, that noxious cloud of crap being spewed out by my furnaces, assemblers, refineries, and boilers? That's the smell of progress."

Well, you can try that with NauvisDay installed, but it will probably come back to bite you in places I am probably not allowed to mention, be it directly when all your offshore pumps clog with goo, your precious treefarm looks like you fed it napalm instead of fertilizer, or indirectly when the local wildlife tears a hole the size of a moon through your defences or chews apart your rail or power lines then makes very short work of your mining outposts.

NauvisDay makes management of pollution and the environment a much greater concern than in the base game. That comes in part due to a much harsher pollution model, which greatly penalizes dirty industry (anything burning coal, refining oil, and/or cobbled-together like Tier-1 assemblers) and ensures whatever pollution you do create ends up drawing unwanted attention. Pollution also has much nastier effects, including total destruction of plant life (more than in the base game) and, at extreme levels, the contamination of water sources to the point of unusability. Not to mention making the very air itself unbreathable.

If you feel this would turn the game into hardcore mode, you need not fear: With some new tools, including cleaner, more "green" hardware (such as gas-powered boilers, steam-powered furnaces, and more natural, non-plant-killing flooring materials), and some judicious use of pollution management infrastructure, you can avoid most of those effects, if you plan well. Note well, however, nothing comes without cost: Cleaner machinery is generally more expensive or performs slightly worse than the dirty counterpart, and what pollution you do create cannot be destroyed entirely - only moved around or exchanged between forms. And you can only put it off to a point.

Screenshots/Video:
Pollution De-Aerosolization Machine (converts air pollution to polluted liquid sludge for more convenient management):
Image

Long-Term Underground Storage, an effective but costly way to deal with sludge:
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Pollution Dispersal Fan, for lowering the regional pollution levels, at cost of spreading it over a much wider area:
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A typical "I don't care" pollution cloud:
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A treefarm ravaged by pollution:
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Wildejackson »

Is the pollution "nerf" applied automatically or manually to entities in the game? Will treefarms and pumps from other mods be affected by pollution? I really love this system but I worry about how it will play with other mods, either in the sense that they simply wont be affected by the mods changes, or that they become useless.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Gaist »

Is there a way to turn down / turn off the sound from pollution clouds? It's deafening for us for some reason.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Gaist wrote:Is there a way to turn down / turn off the sound from pollution clouds? It's deafening for us for some reason.
There is currently an issue and possibly a limitation in the base game.

I will be removing the sounds pending a fix.

Wildejackson wrote:Is the pollution "nerf" applied automatically or manually to entities in the game? Will treefarms and pumps from other mods be affected by pollution? I really love this system but I worry about how it will play with other mods, either in the sense that they simply wont be affected by the mods changes, or that they become useless.
I handle other mods automatically, though I am unfamiliar with AngelMods and thus my interaction with it is currently limited. I am currently playing through in a 5x-tech-cost expensive-recipe full-Bob environment, so I know it works fine.
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Lyneira »

I'm surprised this mod hasn't received more feedback in this thread, although admittedly the thread would be easier to find if the mod's homepage was set to this thread.

I've played with Nauvisday on two playthroughs now in a modpack with notably Angel's and Bob's mods, Rampant AI and Natural Evolution Enemies, with a combined total of nearly 100 hours playtime. (first playthrough without bob's electronics, second one with bob's electronics)

First off I'd like to say the mod concept is great, I very much like the causes and consequences for pollution that it adds such as increased pollution caused by fossil fuels, pollution for spilling chemicals and adverse effects to yourself, the trees and your factory if you let it go too far. As well as the finite oil wells and the necessity of dealing with pollution.

Here are the notable experiences I've had with the mod so far in the first playthrough:
  • The balance between pollution and progression in the early game, when you're relying on burner miners and later steam boilers feels right - it provides an incentive not to stick too long with burner miners and you do have to worry about how much pollution you're making when you start to scale up your steam power by the time you automate green science.
  • Despite being on a heavily forested map, I had to deal with some nasty and persistent biter attacks as a result of my pollution spreading too far, which prompted me to start using deaerosolization machines to move it somewhere it wouldn't reach the biters as easily and dissipate it faster.
  • Once I switched to solar power the pollution problem seemed to become negligible. Oil refineries were the only thing left that could make any significant pollution but since my starting oil and gas was finite and plastic production difficult to set up with angel's petrochem, the pollution cloud never left the base after that.
  • At the present time in that playthrough, with blue and yellow science automated, pollution is still a non-problem. I have automated some deaerosolization machines to run when pollution goes above 2k and the sludge is processed faster than I can produce it by just one angel's chemical plant that turns it into useful things like carbon and sulfur dioxide.
  • Other than the brief time of peak pollution early on with constant biter attacks, the biters never evolved past level 1. (2/3 HP)
Second playthrough:
  • My experience with pollution in the early game was more or less the same.
  • I decided to expand earlier than the previous game because I needed more space for the factory with bob's electronics installed. Apart from the fights to clear the nests, I haven't been attacked by biters yet, although I am running into the limits of how much pollution I can allow the environment to absorb.
  • I have automated red and green science, currently in the process of setting up oil and gas refining for plastic production.
  • I have not yet started using deaerosolization machines due to taking more space early on and the modpack's naturally slow progression.
  • If I switch to solar power soon and/or start storing polluted sludge I expect I'll have no problems with pollution in the future.
  • The biters never evolved past level 1 (2/3 HP), so a simple sparsely gun-turreted wall with basic ammo gives me plenty of security.
So here's my feedback:
  • It seems biter de-evolution is too strong right now. I do like the idea of being able to shut down the factory to let the biters calm down if I notice I've overextended but I would like the evolution of a well-managed low pollution factory to at least follow somewhat behind the player's progression so that by the time you have a wall of laser turrets protecting your factory the biters aren't still level 1 with 3 HP.
  • It shouldn't be possible to filter all pollution out of the air no matter how many deaerosolization machines you spam. Some ways to do this could be limiting the number of deaerosolization machines that can do useful work per chunk and/or reducing their effectiveness with lower pollution levels in the chunk. A highly polluted chunk would let them work as normal, a medium polluted chunk at a reduced speed or effectiveness but the same power cost, and in a chunk with minor pollution it would stop working at all.
  • I would like to see occasional/regular biter attacks still being a possibility even if you handle pollution well, especially in the phase after switching to nuclear/solar and you start to scale up production and use modules that increase pollution. I could crank up the pollution in the mod settings but as I mentioned in my experiences before, there is a difficulty spike just before transitioning to solar which might become frustrating at best, unsurvivable at worst. Balancing pollution so it is impossible to remove all pollution and allowing mild pollution clouds to spread far and wide to trigger the occasional attack from biter nests might achieve this. And perhaps reduce the scale difference in pollution between normal machines and boilers/refineries so that late game factories running solar/nuclear have a bit more of a problem to deal with.
  • Once you have the ability to process pollution into useful things with angel's petrochem installed there is no reason to use other methods of pollution disposal like depleted wells. The processing is relatively fast, cheap, yields useful resources and if any of the chemicals are unwanted they can be flared at effectively no pollution penalty. Aside from increasing the cost/slowing it down, this could also be made more interesting by requiring some catalyst/filter type resources to filter out the pollution elements from the sludge so that processing all your pollution isn't automatically the best solution.
  • Angel's mods force you to deal with chemical byproducts, many of which end up in a clarifier or flare stack. The base pollution of flare stacks and clarifiers is extremely low so it might deserve an increase. Depending on what is flared, the pollution could be made to vary as well although that might be more within Angel's domain than Nauvis Day's.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
So here's my feedback:
It seems biter de-evolution is too strong right now. I do like the idea of being able to shut down the factory to let the biters calm down if I notice I've overextended but I would like the evolution of a well-managed low pollution factory to at least follow somewhat behind the player's progression so that by the time you have a wall of laser turrets protecting your factory the biters aren't still level 1 with 3 HP.increase. Depending on what is flared, the pollution could be made to vary as well although that might be more within Angel's domain than Nauvis Day's.
It is funny you say that considering that the prevailing opinion is that NVDay makes the game far too hard, and alien attacks and evolution ramp up far faster than the player can possibly compensate for. Indeed, I have seen that happen myself, including with my current save.
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
It shouldn't be possible to filter all pollution out of the air no matter how many deaerosolization machines you spam. Some ways to do this could be limiting the number of deaerosolization machines that can do useful work per chunk and/or reducing their effectiveness with lower pollution levels in the chunk. A highly polluted chunk would let them work as normal, a medium polluted chunk at a reduced speed or effectiveness but the same power cost, and in a chunk with minor pollution it would stop working at all.
I have wanted to do this for a long time - primarily because I do not want deaeros producing sludge from nothing - but there is no performant way to do this, especially if one places many of them. The best I can do is iterate over all the deaeros every second or so, check the pollution in that chunk, and then mark them functional or not, which is very very slow.
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
And perhaps reduce the scale difference in pollution between normal machines and boilers/refineries so that late game factories running solar/nuclear have a bit more of a problem to deal with.
NVDay is explicitly designed to punish dirty technology, not factory size.
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
Once you have the ability to process pollution into useful things with angel's petrochem installed there is no reason to use other methods of pollution disposal like depleted wells. The processing is relatively fast, cheap, yields useful resources and if any of the chemicals are unwanted they can be flared at effectively no pollution penalty. Aside from increasing the cost/slowing it down, this could also be made more interesting by requiring some catalyst/filter type resources to filter out the pollution elements from the sludge so that processing all your pollution isn't automatically the best solution.
The intent is that you have far more sludge than can be reasonably processed. Given your earlier comment about very little pollution, it sounds like you have very little sludge.
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
Angel's mods force you to deal with chemical byproducts, many of which end up in a clarifier or flare stack. The base pollution of flare stacks and clarifiers is extremely low so it might deserve an increase.
I can do that. What is its internal name and entity type?
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
Depending on what is flared, the pollution could be made to vary as well although that might be more within Angel's domain than Nauvis Day's.
This is not possible.
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Lyneira »

Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:40 pm
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
It seems biter de-evolution is too strong right now.
...
It is funny you say that considering that the prevailing opinion is that NVDay makes the game far too hard, and alien attacks and evolution ramp up far faster than the player can possibly compensate for. Indeed, I have seen that happen myself, including with my current save.
...
NVDay is explicitly designed to punish dirty technology, not factory size.
I think I'm seeing this because I tend to take my time figuring out designs, expanding the factory somewhat conservatively and focus on teching up rather than scaling up, where others might focus more on scaling up production and causing a lot more pollution in a short time period. And given I'm relatively new at the bob/angel mods. figuring out how to progress takes even longer so the de-evolution has a lot of time to play its part.

I can also give an update about my second bob/angel playthrough. I relied on steam power for a bit longer than I should have. The starting lake got polluted, the offshore pump clogged so I had to replace it, start blowing the pollution away from the chunk and mind my power usage while I worked towards solar. Despite the significant pollution I was now creating, because I had taken quite a bit of terrain and walled it in, the pollution cloud had not gone outside of my walls so I wasn't worried about biters. After a couple hours passed, it turns out that was a mistake. The biters (natural evolution enemies and rampant AI) somehow triggered an attack and they had evolved to level 3, easily breaking through my lightly defended wall. I shut down the entire factory and made several attempts to stabilize but getting close to the wall just triggered more attacks now that they were agitated, so I ended up having to load several autosaves back and shut down the steam boilers immediately to let the biters calm down. They still attacked after a certain amount of time but now they were weaker and I could work on transitioning to solar.

So you're right that dirty technology is punished severely and I'm not asking that to be made harder than it is. Nor do I want to specifically punish factory size. I saw you're working on a mod called Loss Prevention that's intended to use a heuristic to set a cap for biter evolution to address the out of control ramp up you've seen in your games.

My thinking with this suggestion was you could apply the same heuristic to set a minimum for the biter de-evolution so that in a late game where you have a large factory and strong offensive/defensive technologies, you can't shut down power, go afk and come back to level 1 biters for easy nest clearing. Let's say your factory was fending off level 5 biters during normal operation, when you go afk to let the biters calm down their minimum level might be level 3 instead but won't go lower due to your technology level.

Or a much simpler way to do it: Keep track of the highest evolution level seen during the game (X %) and never allow the de-evolution to drop the evolution level to less than for example X - 30%.
Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:40 pm
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
It shouldn't be possible to filter all pollution out of the air ...
I have wanted to do this for a long time - primarily because I do not want deaeros producing sludge from nothing - but there is no performant way to do this, especially if one places many of them. The best I can do is iterate over all the deaeros every second or so, check the pollution in that chunk, and then mark them functional or not, which is very very slow.
If you have a numerically indexed list of all your deaeros, you could spread out the checks for them to reduce the impact so checking all of them at once doesn't create lag spikes. If you wanted to check each deaero only once every 10 seconds and given 60 ticks per second, you could use modulo math to check 1/600th of all deaeros every tick. In pseudocode:

Code: Select all

t = game time (in ticks)
s = 10 (seconds between checks)
m = 60 * s (effectively check 1 / m of all deaeros every tick)
deaero_list = numerically indexed list of all deaeros
i = t % (60 * s)
while i < deaero_list.length; {
 do_deaero_check(deaero_list[i])
 i = i + m
}
If there are fewer deaeros than 600, some ticks will do no check and others will only check one machine per update. If there were 1200 deaeros on the map, it would still only check 2 deaeros per tick.

If you mean the process of toggling a deaero itself is very slow, I guess the only way to mitigate that would be to increase the time between checks, perhaps also mark a toggled deaero with the current tick's timestamp as "cooling down" after being toggled (the deaero check loop would skip any deaero that is still cooling down) so it doesn't toggle as often if the chunk is on the threshold.
Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:40 pm
The intent is that you have far more sludge than can be reasonably processed. Given your earlier comment about very little pollution, it sounds like you have very little sludge.
A fair point given how I tend to progress fairly slowly and cautiously, and also given that I automated the deaeros not to run if pollution was low. I'll keep an eye on this to see how it goes when I get later into the game. I'm not sure once you can process the sludge there is ever such a thing as too much of it though. The pollution processing takes 2 seconds and processes 100 sludge, giving sulfur dioxide gas, nitrogen monoxide and a small chance of carbon. Sulfur dioxide is easily turned into sulfuric acid with some purified water, which was a bottleneck resource in my first angel/bob playthrough. Aside from battery production and the angel's refining ore processing, it can be used in large amounts to process crushed stone, slag and geodes (which can be generated at only a power cost from seawater) into desired ores. The nitrogen monoxide doesn't have much use initially so will likely get flared, but can be used for rocket fuel later.
Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:40 pm
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:47 pm
... The base pollution of flare stacks and clarifiers is extremely low so it might deserve an increase.
I can do that. What is its internal name and entity type?
I hope I found the right piece of code for that, here's the Clarifier:

Code: Select all

data:extend(
{
...
    {
    type = "furnace",
    name = "clarifier",
Although looking closer, the Clarifier might not need a pollution increase because it is used only for unwanted types of water such as mineralized water, saline water etc. For example if you need chlorine, you might purify water into purified and saline water, use the saline water to get what you need and clarify all the purified water if you have no immediate use for it. You can't just throw any liquid in here to remove it, it only works on Angel's different types of water.

The flare stack is the more dubious one. This is what lets you get rid of most unwanted nasty chemicals from Angel's petrochemical processing without much pollution. It's also frequently used to vent harmless gases like nitrogen when you're filtering air for oxygen, or excess hydrogen (you can't burn it for power afaik) after electrolyzing for chlorine or oxygen.

Code: Select all

data:extend(
{
...
    {
    type = "furnace",
    name = "angels-flare-stack",

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Lyneira wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:24 pm
So you're right that dirty technology is punished severely and I'm not asking that to be made harder than it is. Nor do I want to specifically punish factory size. I saw you're working on a mod called Loss Prevention that's intended to use a heuristic to set a cap for biter evolution to address the out of control ramp up you've seen in your games.
That is exactly what Loss Prevention was for, yes. My current save - which is expensive recipes, 5x tech cost, full Bob (except modules, equipment, warfare, and enemies)+NatEvo+NVDay+FTweaks+Oreverhaul+more - was already at 35% evo when automating green science and 50% by the time I got any NVDay research at all, purely because pollution was out of control, what with my power source being 16 Mk2 steam engines powered by 8 Mk2 boilers. It reached a point about 36h in where I was just about ready to harvest my first oil, but was already at 66% evo and dealing with large spitters and biters, while having nothing better than piercing ammo, gun turrets, and the occasional grenade.

I made some recipe changes to EGCombat to help - notably, Concussion Turrets are earlier and Shockwave Turrets are much earlier in the progression and slightly more powerful now - but it took a hard clamp from LossPrevention to 0.5 to get the evo to a point where I could even manage expanding out to a nearby oil field with the little military power I had.
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:24 pm
My thinking with this suggestion was you could apply the same heuristic to set a minimum for the biter de-evolution so that in a late game where you have a large factory and strong offensive/defensive technologies, you can't shut down power, go afk and come back to level 1 biters for easy nest clearing. Let's say your factory was fending off level 5 biters during normal operation, when you go afk to let the biters calm down their minimum level might be level 3 instead but won't go lower due to your technology level.

Or a much simpler way to do it: Keep track of the highest evolution level seen during the game (X %) and never allow the de-evolution to drop the evolution level to less than for example X - 30%.
This is an interesting idea.
Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:40 pm
If you have a numerically indexed list of all your deaeros, you could spread out the checks for them to reduce the impact so checking all of them at once doesn't create lag spikes. If you wanted to check each deaero only once every 10 seconds and given 60 ticks per second, you could use modulo math to check 1/600th of all deaeros every tick. In pseudocode:

Code: Select all

t = game time (in ticks)
s = 10 (seconds between checks)
m = 60 * s (effectively check 1 / m of all deaeros every tick)
deaero_list = numerically indexed list of all deaeros
i = t % (60 * s)
while i < deaero_list.length; {
 do_deaero_check(deaero_list[i])
 i = i + m
}
If there are fewer deaeros than 600, some ticks will do no check and others will only check one machine per update. If there were 1200 deaeros on the map, it would still only check 2 deaeros per tick.
I am well aware of this, but the problem is that checking that sporadically will not serve the purpose of checking at all, especially for the more powerful deaeros which can clear 2000 pollution in less than five seconds. The checks need to be fast enough to be effective, but also slow enough to not cause a tick overhead. These two ranges do not overlap.

Also, even 1200 deaeros may be an underestimate for some. I had issues with EGCombat's turret healing tech, as I assumed that 'spreading' the ticks would work fine. Then I got reports of extreme lag, as people were building hundreds of thousands of turrets, which made the spreading utterly worthless, as 500 turrets were still being ticked per tick.
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:24 pm
I hope I found the right piece of code for that, here's the Clarifier:

Code: Select all

data:extend(
{
...
    {
    type = "furnace",
    name = "clarifier",
Although looking closer, the Clarifier might not need a pollution increase because it is used only for unwanted types of water such as mineralized water, saline water etc. For example if you need chlorine, you might purify water into purified and saline water, use the saline water to get what you need and clarify all the purified water if you have no immediate use for it. You can't just throw any liquid in here to remove it, it only works on Angel's different types of water.

The flare stack is the more dubious one. This is what lets you get rid of most unwanted nasty chemicals from Angel's petrochemical processing without much pollution. It's also frequently used to vent harmless gases like nitrogen when you're filtering air for oxygen, or excess hydrogen (you can't burn it for power afaik) after electrolyzing for chlorine or oxygen.

Code: Select all

data:extend(
{
...
    {
    type = "furnace",
    name = "angels-flare-stack",
These are the correct names, yes. I will severely increase the pollution for the latter.

I am also going to increase it on the uranium centrifuge, to make endgame power not completely clean, and to give some need for pollution management even in the endgame.
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Lyneira »

Your modlist regarding biters sounds very similar to mine (except I wasn't playing on marathon mode with 5x tech cost), maybe I should indeed install Loss Prevention to allow me more leeway with active pollution management. At the moment, even if I do contain my pollution using the active management tools the mere fact I'm generating it will cause evolution to run out of control.
Reika wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:53 am
I am well aware of this, but the problem is that checking that sporadically will not serve the purpose of checking at all, especially for the more powerful deaeros which can clear 2000 pollution in less than five seconds. The checks need to be fast enough to be effective, but also slow enough to not cause a tick overhead. These two ranges do not overlap.

Also, even 1200 deaeros may be an underestimate for some. I had issues with EGCombat's turret healing tech, as I assumed that 'spreading' the ticks would work fine. Then I got reports of extreme lag, as people were building hundreds of thousands of turrets, which made the spreading utterly worthless, as 500 turrets were still being ticked per tick.
I got curious so I had a little peek at the deaerosolizer prototype - I figured you would be using a function to remove pollution from the chunk whenever a deaero completes its recipe, but it looks like you're using a negative emission value for its energy source instead so it's all handled in-engine. Very performant but now I understand why checking for low pollution is a hard problem to solve.

Maybe there is still a way to achieve what you want. It looks like there's plenty of room to scale up the power of a single deaerosolizer since the negative pollution is applied (probably every tick) by the engine rather than on recipe completion. If people actually have reasons to build this many deaerosolizers, I would guess they're concentrating them in areas of heavy pollution, sacrificing factory area to remove pollution.

If you were to implement a checking system, you could keep the number of deaerosolizers down with a rule and incentives for the player:
  • Limit the number of deaerosolizers in an area. If a player or bot tries to place one too close to another one, prevent it or disable it so it won't get checked. (with feedback about interference from a nearby deaero) This is probably pretty harsh without further changes. It might not even be needed if the incentives below are strong enough.
  • Accommodate larger scale with the deaerosolizer lineup. Cleaning more pollution means you need to blow more air through the machine. You can either blow air through the machine faster (current deaero upgrade line) or have a bigger intake. (bigger machine) If you give players a range of deaeros from small to huge, they can still make that tradeoff of surface area and power to clean more pollution despite being limited in the number of deaeros they can put in an area. You can incentivize that further by making bigger deaeros (slightly) more power efficient than smaller ones.
  • The checking system could take the form of slowing a deaero down exponentially when it is getting close to cleaning all pollution out of a chunk. This allows sporadic checking to be effective because a powerful deaero in a chunk with little pollution will be running slow enough that it doesn't reach zero pollution before the next check. At the same time, this will cause pollution levels to stabilize at a level depending on the amount being generated and create a system of diminishing returns from spamming deaerosolizers in a single area. I thought this could take the form of multiple recipes with different crafting times and emissions multipliers but I'm not sure if some pollution/sludge vanishes when recipes are switched out like that. Perhaps there is another way to apply modifiers on a running machine's speed, power consumption and pollution, something like the module system but controlled by the mod rather than the player inserting modules into slots?
  • If exponential slowdown is used and you don't want a range of different sizes, scaling the current ones up in power (and optionally, size) could also compensate for the area limit or diminishing returns.
I realize something like the above would mean quite a bit of work, so the above points are of course merely meant as suggestions. :)

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Lyneira wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:24 am
The checking system could take the form of slowing a deaero down exponentially when it is getting close to cleaning all pollution out of a chunk. This allows sporadic checking to be effective because a powerful deaero in a chunk with little pollution will be running slow enough that it doesn't reach zero pollution before the next check. At the same time, this will cause pollution levels to stabilize at a level depending on the amount being generated and create a system of diminishing returns from spamming deaerosolizers in a single area. I thought this could take the form of multiple recipes with different crafting times and emissions multipliers but I'm not sure if some pollution/sludge vanishes when recipes are switched out like that. Perhaps there is another way to apply modifiers on a running machine's speed, power consumption and pollution, something like the module system but controlled by the mod rather than the player inserting modules into slots?

I realize something like the above would mean quite a bit of work, so the above points are of course merely meant as suggestions. :)
I completely forgot that 0.16 added emissions multipliers to recipes - that does enable both the above and the original idea of flare stack recipe-specific pollution increases (and for that matter, the Bob venting pump).
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Reika wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:26 pm
Lyneira wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:24 am
The checking system could take the form of slowing a deaero down exponentially when it is getting close to cleaning all pollution out of a chunk. This allows sporadic checking to be effective because a powerful deaero in a chunk with little pollution will be running slow enough that it doesn't reach zero pollution before the next check. At the same time, this will cause pollution levels to stabilize at a level depending on the amount being generated and create a system of diminishing returns from spamming deaerosolizers in a single area. I thought this could take the form of multiple recipes with different crafting times and emissions multipliers but I'm not sure if some pollution/sludge vanishes when recipes are switched out like that. Perhaps there is another way to apply modifiers on a running machine's speed, power consumption and pollution, something like the module system but controlled by the mod rather than the player inserting modules into slots?

I realize something like the above would mean quite a bit of work, so the above points are of course merely meant as suggestions. :)
I completely forgot that 0.16 added emissions multipliers to recipes - that does enable both the above and the original idea of flare stack recipe-specific pollution increases (and for that matter, the Bob venting pump).
I implemented pollution-specific deaerosolization recipes, and it works amazingly. They deaeros can no longer bring pollution to zero - the four tiers bottom out around 1500, 1000, 400, and 100 - and it finally means sludge from nothing is no longer possible.

Here is the efficiency curve I went with:

Code: Select all

	{0, 0},
	{1000, 0.05},
	{2500, 0.2},
	{4000, 0.5},
	{10000, 0.8},
	{25000, 1},
	{40000, 1.5},
	{100000, 2.5}
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Lyneira »

That's good news! I look forward to seeing it the next update. :)

Does the power consumption stay the same across all the different recipes?

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Lyneira wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:22 am
That's good news! I look forward to seeing it the next update. :)

Does the power consumption stay the same across all the different recipes?
Yes.
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by decanoic »

I just wanted to post some feedback as well. Like Lyneira, I have been doing an Angel + Bob's run, with Nauvis Day, Rampant and Clockwork (for longer nights); it's also been using expensive recipes/science and 2x science modifier. My experience was very similar to Lyneira's. I suspect this is because the pollution associated with a lot of Angel's smelting and ore processing is low. It could also be because, again like Lyneira, I'm new to bob's/angel's (first real playthrough) and have been going quite slowly as I figure stuff out.

I have been at 0% evolution for basically the entire game (current base is ~25MW). Since I switched to solar with electric boilers as "battery", pollution has been a complete non-issue with barely even any cloud. I found that even clearing out nests is very doable since it doesn't take very long for the ~10% evolution bump from clearing a nest to reset back down to zero. Even before solar, evolution was at 0% although I did at least have to consider my pollution cloud. For a while I was running some deaerosolization machines solely as an easier way to produce nitric acid, but that was about as much use as they got.

After reading about it more, I understand that NVDay wasn't really designed with Angel's in mind, so this might not be particularly helpful feedback. Nevertheless, here it is!

edit 11/19: after some tweaking, I feel like I got it closer to how it 'should' feel. Made the following changes:
  • Just increased pollution modifier in the mod to 2.5. Can't believe I hadn't even looked at that....
  • Modified the coal burner detection to no longer look for obj.energy_source.fuel_category == "chemical". This lets it trigger on Angel's blast furnaces (probably still not quite enough, but this was easy)
  • Put in a game start mod setting for pollution evolution, and upped that to 1.5x base. Might increase this a bit more, but as is at least when the factory is running hard evolution will increase a little bit, and clearing out nests will take long enough to reset that there's at least some cost to it.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by JCU »

Are air filters have any use? They seems to be craftable, but not used for anything. If not, there is my suggestion: advanced filtering machines shoult use them to capture pollution. Then dirty filters should be processed by chemical plant into a sludge, maybe leaving empty casings for reuse.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by JCU »

I got it, filters are used for the advanced oil processing. But they are available for crafting too early in the tech tree, far before they have an actual usage.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Light »

This mod has made my combat heavy games quite enjoyable, but there is one thing I'd like to request.

NauvisDay likes to modify the evolution values, which is fine by itself, but it does conflict with mods such as Pitch Black which modify the values based on certain day/night events to spice things up. Unfortunately, Nauvis keeps resetting these values and it throws the balance out of whack. When that process is removed, battles are intense (Rampant), night time excursions are hair raising (Pitch Black), and pollution control is essential both day and night (NauvisDay).

It would be nice if there was an option to toggle the evolution modifications to prevent mod conflicts such as those, or simply for those who prefer to use their own custom values given we have map options for our own intensity. An option to disable or better fine-tune pollution values of "internal values" would also be appreciated, as a few boilers can be a bit too intense early on with desert maps. The current option modifies all entities (as it should), but makes the boilers impossible to contain.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Light wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:46 am
This mod has made my combat heavy games quite enjoyable, but there is one thing I'd like to request.

NauvisDay likes to modify the evolution values, which is fine by itself, but it does conflict with mods such as Pitch Black which modify the values based on certain day/night events to spice things up. Unfortunately, Nauvis keeps resetting these values and it throws the balance out of whack. When that process is removed, battles are intense (Rampant), night time excursions are hair raising (Pitch Black), and pollution control is essential both day and night (NauvisDay).
How would I do this? NVDay has to update those in order to compensate for things like mods assuming the values NVDay sets are unintentional and overwriting them.
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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Light »

Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:30 pm
Light wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:46 am
This mod has made my combat heavy games quite enjoyable, but there is one thing I'd like to request.

NauvisDay likes to modify the evolution values, which is fine by itself, but it does conflict with mods such as Pitch Black which modify the values based on certain day/night events to spice things up. Unfortunately, Nauvis keeps resetting these values and it throws the balance out of whack. When that process is removed, battles are intense (Rampant), night time excursions are hair raising (Pitch Black), and pollution control is essential both day and night (NauvisDay).
How would I do this? NVDay has to update those in order to compensate for things like mods assuming the values NVDay sets are unintentional and overwriting them.
I've already suggested adding a toggle to disable any evolution changes from occurring or disabling that function while Pitch Black is installed.

Pitch Black operates on the principle of increasing and decreasing evolution based on time of day or random events. It needs full control over evolution values to accomplish what it's designed to do. Nauvis needs to leave evolution alone to avoid tripping over Pitch Black, which is why I made that request so the two mods can work together instead of fighting each other for control. Otherwise it's a 'one or the other' situation and that's completely unnecessary.

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Re: NauvisDay - Gaia's Revenge, and your attempt to adapt to it

Post by Reika »

Light wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:41 am
Reika wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:30 pm
Light wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:46 am
This mod has made my combat heavy games quite enjoyable, but there is one thing I'd like to request.

NauvisDay likes to modify the evolution values, which is fine by itself, but it does conflict with mods such as Pitch Black which modify the values based on certain day/night events to spice things up. Unfortunately, Nauvis keeps resetting these values and it throws the balance out of whack. When that process is removed, battles are intense (Rampant), night time excursions are hair raising (Pitch Black), and pollution control is essential both day and night (NauvisDay).
How would I do this? NVDay has to update those in order to compensate for things like mods assuming the values NVDay sets are unintentional and overwriting them.
I've already suggested adding a toggle to disable any evolution changes from occurring or disabling that function while Pitch Black is installed.

Pitch Black operates on the principle of increasing and decreasing evolution based on time of day or random events. It needs full control over evolution values to accomplish what it's designed to do. Nauvis needs to leave evolution alone to avoid tripping over Pitch Black, which is why I made that request so the two mods can work together instead of fighting each other for control. Otherwise it's a 'one or the other' situation and that's completely unnecessary.
That is still a "one or the other" situation, just one wher NVDay is making sure it is always the other. Simply disabling those breaks NVDay.
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