old LTN discussion thread

[Optera]

I'm using Bobs mods, so barrels stack to 20. So instead of min delivery size = 10 * 40 * #wagons I used 20 * 40 * #wagons, is this right? Because it didn't work, it just sent the trains back into an infinite loop taking barrels from Stop A to Stop B, they get belted back into Stop A and then the trains take them right back to Stop B again for another round.

I'm intending to use this as an "active provider" type functionality to remove byproducts and empty barrels etc. from the system and hopefully avoid it clogging, then I can store/reprocess the byproducts at another location. All of my stops are either requester only or provider only, so generally there is 1 provider and 1 requester stop per manufacturing area and the majority of them provide and request multiple items.

Basically what you built is this:

2017-03-18-11-08-41-9845848.jpg (22.45 KiB) Viewed 6604 times

Stop needlessly transferring items around with belts or collecting them in some central spot.
At least use sensible circuit logic grabbing both stations storage.

[nuhll]

Instead of just helping me.

I read your "well written" guide.

I did now all cabeling from scratch.

I connectet via green cable constant combinator to the lamp.

Then i connectet the lamp with green cable all chests.

Then i connectet with red wire all filter inserters with the combinator. Not working. (i set filter inserters on "set filter")

WHAT im doin wrong. I dont get it. Its only working when the number is positive, i dont understand it.

And no, on your screenshot you cant see anything. It would be much easier if you just write "Connect X with X with X" and "X with X with X"....

This kind of reminds me of a Haiku.

At unloading it should be obvious you have to flip signs. "each * -1 = each"

You complain about screenshots not telling you anything and what do you do? Post screenshots.

You dont get me. I dont complain about screenshots, i complain about the "READ THE FUCKING GUIDE1!11!1". Which i btw did.

I have no idea what you mean with "each * -1 = each".

I did as in this video explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOlmUKlscWs

Lamp to chests (green)

Red from the thing next to the lamp to the filter inserters, inserters set to set filter.

WHAT ELSE I DO NEED?

PLEASE.

[steinio]

Instead of just helping me.

I read your "well written" guide.

I did now all cabeling from scratch.

I connectet via green cable constant combinator to the lamp.

Then i connectet the lamp with green cable all chests.

Then i connectet with red wire all filter inserters with the combinator. Not working. (i set filter inserters on "set filter")

WHAT im doin wrong. I dont get it. Its only working when the number is positive, i dont understand it.

And no, on your screenshot you cant see anything. It would be much easier if you just write "Connect X with X with X" and "X with X with X"....

This kind of reminds me of a Haiku.

At unloading it should be obvious you have to flip signs. "each * -1 = each"

You complain about screenshots not telling you anything and what do you do? Post screenshots.

You dont get me. I dont complain about screenshots, i complain about the "READ THE FUCKING GUIDE1!11!1". Which i btw did.

I have no idea what you mean with "each * -1 = each".

I did as in this video explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOlmUKlscWs

Lamp to chests (green)

Red from the thing next to the lamp to the filter inserters, inserters set to set filter.

WHAT ELSE I DO NEED?

PLEASE.

Yes one can easy go crazy with this mod.

This is my unloading station:
- connect all chests with LTN train stop input (red wire)
- build a constant combinator and connect it to the LTN train stop input (red wire)
- set the constant combinator with the wanted items, but negative numbers - it adds up to 0 on unloading

- build a arithmetic combinator and set it to each (yellow asterisk) * -1 = each - this is needed, because the inserters only accept positive values
- connect all filter inserters to the arithmetic c. output and set them to 'set filter' (green wire)
- connect the arithmetic c. input to the LTN train stop output (green wire)

Hope it helps.
The colors are not important, but must be different for input and output.

Greetings steinio

[nuhll]

Its not that this mod is "sooo" complicated, but it lacks a good guide.

I got it working with your help, many thanks.

Just a question, couldnt it be simplified by offering 2 different stations: request and provider? And if you place, all constant combinators and so on are already there, and just need to do:

1.) wired like "Please connect green with your chests" and
2:) "Please connect red wire with your inserters"?

IF requester
3.) Please set your items you want in the constant combinator using -XXXX

[downriver_bob]

Basically what you built is this:

The attachment 2017-03-18-11-08-41-9845848.jpg is no longer available

Stop needlessly transferring items around with belts or collecting them in some central spot.
At least use sensible circuit logic grabbing both stations storage.

Yes, I am aware that is essentially what I've built. My whole question is how to turn it from that into something more functionally like this:

Screenshot (21).png (397.68 KiB) Viewed 6590 times

Where the storage chest is Stop C (simulated as stop with provider priority 1 so it is higher than Stop A), the requester chest is Stop B, and the passive provider chest is Stop A. Then the requester chest has its request amount set by "amount in network" - "amount in passive provider chest". Without a way to output the amount of items in the logistic train network, is there a way to make this work?

At least use sensible circuit logic grabbing both stations storage.

Example of this? I tried to connect contents of Stop A chests to Stop B to prevent it wanting to create a delivery from there, but that didn't work. I'm no expert on the circuit network, or really how the signals interact. But given a decent example, I can usually figure certain parts out.

Stop needlessly transferring items around with belts or collecting them in some central spot.

It's not really needless when you have a provider station completely full of byproduct (empty barrels, sodium hydroxide, whatever) and then can't access whatever it is you're actually trying to make.

If you have better ideas/designs for stations I'd love to see them, maybe having a dedicated provider and a dedicated requester station isn't the right way to be thinking?

[steinio]

Just a question, couldnt it be simplified by offering 2 different stations: request and provider?

More and more posts arriving here, which also need this functionality, so the mod author is maybe already looking in this idea. *fingers crossed*

[nuhll]

I would also wonder when this wont get added to vanilla factorio at some time.

[downriver_bob]

Has anyone got a blueprint string they'd like to share, or a detailed explanation of how to set up a "memory cell counter" type unloading station? I have the loading working from a blueprint of the "Universal Provider" station in the provided savegame file (although an explanation of how that actually works would be much appreciated also), but the unloading side of it I have no idea about.

I'd really like it to work with stack filter inserters, so having to set only 1 item filter per inserter requires some kind of count and then rotating through each requested item

[Optera]

Where the storage chest is Stop C (simulated as stop with provider priority 1 so it is higher than Stop A), the requester chest is Stop B, and the passive provider chest is Stop A. Then the requester chest has its request amount set by "amount in network" - "amount in passive provider chest". Without a way to output the amount of items in the logistic train network, is there a way to make this work?

I don't see why this is giving you so much problems. All you have to do is make sure C is higher priority than A.
Produce new barrels while A is below one or two trains. When B needs barrels LTN will prefer picking them from C over A.
The above logic will cycle existing barrels and only add new ones when needed. There's no need to know how many barrels are cycling in the network.

Just a question, couldnt it be simplified by offering 2 different stations: request and provider?

More and more posts arriving here, which also need this functionality, so the mod author is maybe already looking in this idea. *fingers crossed*

I'm sorry you don't like my swiss army knife approach, but it won't change. There will never be more than one freely configurable LTN stop.

[downriver_bob]

Where the storage chest is Stop C (simulated as stop with provider priority 1 so it is higher than Stop A), the requester chest is Stop B, and the passive provider chest is Stop A. Then the requester chest has its request amount set by "amount in network" - "amount in passive provider chest". Without a way to output the amount of items in the logistic train network, is there a way to make this work?

I don't see why this is giving you so much problems. All you have to do is make sure C is higher priority than A.
Produce new barrels while A is below one or two trains. When B needs barrels LTN will prefer picking them from C over A.
The above logic will cycle existing barrels and only add new ones when needed. There's no need to know how many barrels are cycling in the network.

That's not giving problems exactly, I know I could do it that way, I was just trying to use a different method because I don't want any stations to get cluttered with barrels and junk, but I've gone to a different method now because its clearly not possible to do it the way I want to.

Do you have any blueprint strings for the above mentioned stations that are a bit more basic than the ones in the demo save? While those are good for showing off what's possible with LTN, for people (like me) who don't have very good knowledge on combinators/logic they're a bit complicated

[steinio]

How about a train which has finished it's delivery get instantly a new one, if there is any instead of driving back to the depot?

[Optera]

That's not giving problems exactly, I know I could do it that way, I was just trying to use a different method because I don't want any stations to get cluttered with barrels and junk, but I've gone to a different method now because its clearly not possible to do it the way I want to.

Do you have any blueprint strings for the above mentioned stations that are a bit more basic than the ones in the demo save? While those are good for showing off what's possible with LTN, for people (like me) who don't have very good knowledge on combinators/logic they're a bit complicated

My definition of simple might be a "little" different from yours.
That's how I build a provider for multiple items able to do merged deliveries.

2017-03-19-11-57-04-4317271.jpg (214.12 KiB) Viewed 6563 times

Blueprint chest not connected

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Requester are too simple to warrant screenshots or blueprints.

[nuhll]

Where the storage chest is Stop C (simulated as stop with provider priority 1 so it is higher than Stop A), the requester chest is Stop B, and the passive provider chest is Stop A. Then the requester chest has its request amount set by "amount in network" - "amount in passive provider chest". Without a way to output the amount of items in the logistic train network, is there a way to make this work?

I don't see why this is giving you so much problems. All you have to do is make sure C is higher priority than A.
Produce new barrels while A is below one or two trains. When B needs barrels LTN will prefer picking them from C over A.
The above logic will cycle existing barrels and only add new ones when needed. There's no need to know how many barrels are cycling in the network.

Just a question, couldnt it be simplified by offering 2 different stations: request and provider?

More and more posts arriving here, which also need this functionality, so the mod author is maybe already looking in this idea. *fingers crossed*

I'm sorry you don't like my swiss army knife approach, but it won't change. There will never be more than one freely configurable LTN stop.

I dont say i dont like it. I just say you make it unneccessary hard to use your mod and since you invest so much time into it, you might be interested to get used by more then 1% of the community !?


You dont need to change anything - just make an "shortcut" for normal users.

They click on provider and an LTN station with needed combinators (and cables) are build... thats it.

[downriver_bob]

For anyone who's interested I managed to blindly make a multiple item requester/provider set up with counters for loading and unloading for testing. Blueprints and images below, be aware as Optera previously mentioned there is no way to have inserters move an exact amount, so this setup will still jam with fully loaded requests. Can only wait for 0.15 and then start all over again

In the blueprints, the creative mode items have been removed for simplicity.

Whole setup:

Screenshot (27).png (2.51 MiB) Viewed 6527 times

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Provider Station:

Screenshot (29).png (2.29 MiB) Viewed 6527 times

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Requester Station:

Screenshot (30).png (2.31 MiB) Viewed 6527 times

Code: Select all

H4sIAAAAAAAA/9VY3Y6bPBB9lRWXn/AKSEiyWtEnqHrVu1WFvDAhVsFGxmQ3jfLu3wAJ4ccQiLRKe9Vt7BnPnHNmxiYUT7EIaPzke0fgiikGmXc8cpqAZ2RK
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[XOffshore]

LTN 0.9.8
Setting log_level either to 3 or 4 in config file leads to an error when loading savefile:

Code: Select all

Error while running event on_tick (ID 0)
__LogisticTrainNetwork__/control.lua:349: attempt to get length of field 'activeDeliveries' (a number value)

ltn-notice.png (2.72 MiB) Viewed 6482 times

[Optera]

LTN 0.9.8
Setting log_level either to 3 or 4 in config file leads to an error when loading savefile:

Code: Select all

Error while running event on_tick (ID 0)
__LogisticTrainNetwork__/control.lua:349: attempt to get length of field 'activeDeliveries' (a number value)

ltn-notice.png

Thanks for the report. Fixed in 0.9.9

[nuhll]

Hey, a youtuber found a "bug" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV9vlCNZVt0 10:45

But i think i saw somewhere a solution by changing some setting, but what was it exactly?

[ssilk]

I'm currently in the middle of a problem I don't know how to fix.

The basic problem is, that sometimes the storage is full and the last pieces of items cannot be unloaded. Then after a timeout the train continues driving to the depot station, which is fine, cause in any case there are only a few items in the wagons left, that can just be unloaded into active providers and so be re-integrated into a logistic network that will provide items. This works well.

The real problem is with the liquids!
I wanted to make that equally as with the items. I thought I can build some "sucker" at the depot for the liquid trains, that sucks out the remaining liquids and dumps it into a steam engine. There is in most cases not more than 20-100 units. Pfff.

Here is a screenshot of such a "sucker" at my liquid depot station after a try to "wash" the pipes with water (which doesn't work obviously). You see the different liquids in the pipes? That is the problem!

Screen Shot 2017-03-24 at 02.57.17.png (1.64 MiB) Viewed 6453 times

The remaining water (or whatever liquid) here never goes completely away (as I knew it from other pipe networks). I found no reason, maybe it's a problem with the liquid-train mod?

When now a train comes for example with some remainings of H2SO4, then it will not be pumped, cause the remaining liquid in the pumps is (not visible on the pic) is lubricant!

Again: There is zero (!) lube left in the pumps and so it doesn't pump anything else than lube (looks like so).

I can split this into two problems:

a) The liquid in the pumps/pipes etc. is not removed completely, there is always some "leftovers", no matter how much I suck out of it.
b) If the trains with different liquid leftovers come too fast , then there is some leftover in the tanks, which is not "destroyed" yet. And that effectively will not be destroyed.

Any idea?


EDIT:
The same station when such a train comes in:

Screen Shot 2017-03-24 at 03.23.54.png (639.32 KiB) Viewed 6452 times

fuuuuuuuu....

[SeveQ]

Pull request: consumer only stations

I have created a "consumer only" station signal that can be used to configure a station in a way that it never offers what is available, even if it receives a positive value on its lamp. I've made a pull request on GitHub for the developer of this mod to merge. I've tested it and it works. It needs a new icon for the corresponding constant combiner signal but that's all there is to fix about it right now. It simply makes stations be ignored during the search for available provider stations.

[Optera]

I'm currently in the middle of a problem I don't know how to fix.

The basic problem is, that sometimes the storage is full and the last pieces of items cannot be unloaded. Then after a timeout the train continues driving to the depot station, which is fine, cause in any case there are only a few items in the wagons left, that can just be unloaded into active providers and so be re-integrated into a logistic network that will provide items. This works well.

The real problem is with the liquids!
I wanted to make that equally as with the items. I thought I can build some "sucker" at the depot for the liquid trains, that sucks out the remaining liquids and dumps it into a steam engine. There is in most cases not more than 20-100 units. Pfff.

Here is a screenshot of such a "sucker" at my liquid depot station after a try to "wash" the pipes with water (which doesn't work obviously). You see the different liquids in the pipes? That is the problem!

Screen Shot 2017-03-24 at 02.57.17.png

The remaining water (or whatever liquid) here never goes completely away (as I knew it from other pipe networks). I found no reason, maybe it's a problem with the liquid-train mod?

When now a train comes for example with some remainings of H2SO4, then it will not be pumped, cause the remaining liquid in the pumps is (not visible on the pic) is lubricant!

Again: There is zero (!) lube left in the pumps and so it doesn't pump anything else than lube (looks like so).

I can split this into two problems:

a) The liquid in the pumps/pipes etc. is not removed completely, there is always some "leftovers", no matter how much I suck out of it.
b) If the trains with different liquid leftovers come too fast , then there is some leftover in the tanks, which is not "destroyed" yet. And that effectively will not be destroyed.

Any idea?


EDIT:
The same station when such a train comes in:

Screen Shot 2017-03-24 at 03.23.54.png

fuuuuuuuu....

I stumbled across a possible solution some days ago in post about a base with only 1 assembler building everything. The only way to swipe pipes clean seems to be an assembler. Drain fluids into omni barrel, but then you could just as well use omni barrel instead of RailTanker
Loading stations are even worse than unloading. I never managed to keep pumps from showing the fluid behind them on the front even when shut off by signals.

I sure hope fluid mechanics get improved with 0.15 so we don't need dedicated stops for each fluid.

I have created a "consumer only" station signal that can be used to configure a station in a way that it never offers what is available, even if it receives a positive value on its lamp. I've made a pull request on GitHub for the developer of this mod to merge. I've tested it and it works. It needs a new icon for the corresponding constant combiner signal but that's all there is to fix about it right now. It simply makes stations be ignored during the search for available provider stations.

Requests are indicated by negative item values.
There's no point in adding yet another control signal just to save a single decider combinator, each < 0 = each input value.