Nuclear Power Plant from the future

[Koub]

[Koub] One can disagree without attacking each other. Please don't start doing so, or I'll have to moderate what I deem too much.

[MeduSalem]

Sorry mmmPI, did not see a notification for your reply the other day.

isn't game like sport place to learn how to deal with those frustrations ?^

I think we can agree that most people play because they want to relax & have fun. If it gets frustrating then it is usually not fun for many. Life itself can be often frustrating enough already.

Sure some people might find fun in overcoming frustrations. Maybe that is exactly what they need. That is why games like the Souls-like games exist where people can live out their masochist tendencies. Nothing wrong with that. ^^

When it comes sport... for me the main difference of sport is people are doing that for the sake of competition to find out who is best among other participating people. ^^

The large the system the "more ridiculous" it would look

Sure, hooking it all up to a single pipe might look ridiculous. Not saying it doesn't. ^^
Just that I have no problem with it. It is a trade-off that I am personally willing to accept if it makes some of the other quirks many people complained about go away.

I am likely not going to hook up a 10k steam turbines on a single pipe either, even if I could do that. I will likely still make separate lines for the sake of modularity and redundancy. Or simply because it is more aesthetic to look at if you build things more symmetrical or whatnot.

and the 2nd picture, it shouldn't work, it's cursed

Well, why not. I am an advocate of the devil & a connoisseur of cursed things.

When i read all the "complaints" on the forum i highly doubt this is felt by players in general, that there was no need to experiment because it was all solved already. [...]

Sure, if you don't know where to look things up then you will stumble around in the dark until you eventually have enlightening moments. ^^

But that does not mean that the math for most things has not been solved already by other people. Because as I posted previously, the math for the flow capacity per pipe distance has been solved a long time ago. No matter how much you experiment around you cannot break those numbers. And the geeky people (among which I also counted) designed for example nuclear plants with those numbers in mind 6-7 years ago already.


In general games like Factorio tend to be the type where people spend a lot of time with open Wiki/Excel pages or browsing some forum or reddit thread. If you know where to look you will have a much easier time figuring out why something works in a particular fashion, because there is always that one geek who goes above and beyond with a particular issue and finds numbers/solutions to work with and often also explanations why it is like that.

Now we can discuss that this is generally above what many people want to do when playing a game. Most people probably hate reading through tons of cotton dry wiki pages related to the math behind something or even creating spreadsheets. That leads us to the point where people then continuously complain about the same thing over & over again because it is also beyond their interest to figure things out in such in-depth.

That's funny x), maybe a good point as it could turn out to be true for many players, but i'd rather say "only someone who doesn't make its own blueprint wouldnt notice the difference " which is not a contradiction on the idea, only on the "no ones"

Yea, people copy&pasting blueprints from someone else is what many do. Inherent issue of the blueprint sharing feature being present. ^^
It would likely be more "do it yourself" if sharing blueprints would not exist, but then people would likely complain about lots of other things as well.

[Panzerknacker]

Then you go and have fun with your powerplant like in the picture. Meanwhile, the pros will quit the game and look elsewhere.

What a funny line I don't know if I count as pro, but I assume I'm somewhat proficient after building lots of systems using fluids, including many different tileable and not tileable nuclear reactor setups in the multi GW range. I say I fully understand the 1.1 fluid system, with all its quirks and its unpredictability. I can deal with everything it brings. And I'm fully open to the new system. You cannot reject it before you even used it.

Look it the other way round: Imagine the game always came with the 2.0 fluid system. You play this for years, never knowing any different. Now there's an update that introduces a different system advertised as "more realistic", known by us from the 1.1 game. Imagine the outcry and shitstorm, because all bigger fluid builds suddenly stop working properly. People try fixing and fail, because it's so different with longer distance pipes and high throughput. Even more people would leave the game, because a "broken mechanic" was introduced with no reason other than some rather irrelevant goal of "more realism". Seeing it from that perspective, no one would embrace the 1.1 system.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I think that if the 2.0 fluid system would always have been in the game, the game would have nowhere near the popularity it has now. I also think I would not have been interested in it. Since I already own the original game I guess I will be able to try 2.0 for free, so yeah, I will probably do that and see confirmed quickly that it's not as fun anymore.

I really wish more people understood how important different systems are in a game like this. We have rails, belts, fluids, electrical network. If you remove one of those and make it basically like one of the others, it's just a huge downgrade to the appeal and uniqueness of the game. You can't compensate that with adding more content or graphics or whatever since it's the core gameplay that is being simplified.

But yeah, I understand this expansion become a costly project, maybe more than expected. Maybe they try to cather more to the mainstream by simplifying the game. I think that is a mistake tho because this type of game will never be for the mainstream and it is it's complexity that makes it interesting. Also because good players post interesting videos and stuff about it.

[mmmPI]

Well I am not gonna buy the expansion any longer unless they turn this around or are able to give a really good reason why this needs to be changed (the reasons provided so far are lacking so much that I consider them non-existent).

( i'm not legally qualified to give purchasing advices nor having any financial interest in Wube Inc.)

I have a list of 314 rules that a game need to fulfill before i consider purchasing it, i'm not gonna go into the details, but despite the endless abyss of desperation , the weight loss, the hair gain and my inside that started turning green as if i was becoming a literal kiwi all caused by this FFF, none of those rules were broken, plus sometimes i do not respect the rules, i can make exceptions, i should make that rules 315, when the previous game was very good, i have a tendancy to more "give it a chance", when presented with something new from the same team that did something i really like.

I can't imagine the devs starting their FFF by "we made a change for those that couldn't do well in the game because of their unwillingness to accept their inability to understand the whole fluid system in an hour and unwillingness to learn how to cope with it using other prooven methods that allowed most players to enjoy the game according to the stated dev intent and solving the challenges offered in many various ways using the tools provided".

Like in a MMO devs wouldn't say " we made this dungeon easier for noobs". They would say " this dungeon's difficulty has been adjusted" (for everyone) that's also true but it doesn't remind some players that the frustration they experienced was on them because given the same set of constraint other players managed to create very intricate system and/or have fun / beat the dungeon. Not everyone is 'good at the game', i can easily imagine how it feel when sucking at something, it's annoying enough already, i attempted to make a mod recently , no need constant reminder ^^

On the contrary, a post starting by "you thought it was impossible to make a mod in factorio because sometimes the word you write do not work as you think they do, and the game throw an error, fear not in the future the machine will understand what you want exactly even if you write mistake in your code !!!" will get my attention and hopes but also sound too good to be true x).

It was written in the FFF that a follow up explanation was likely to come but they devs may not know what need to be explained precisely because it depends on what players are not understanding too, not only on the new system. They show a part, people react, devs know better how to explain the other parts based on people's reaction, what need to be adressed.(I read Raiguard emphasizing on some part of the FFF in the comments as people may have missed it).

To me it seem people are concerned about fluid teleporting, and unlimited thoughput. I think fluid will teleport, that's visible on the video. But the throughput will not be unlimited, otherwise there would be no mention of "numbers to tweak" in the FFF.

But it's unclear( to me) how this will be achieved. I'm curious to read about it, i know my opinion can change with new information, the power plant in this post was done the first day i read about the FFF.

If the new system throughput numbers are choosen so as to allow players to make roughly the same things as previously,( NOT LIKE MY POWER PLANT that require unlimited throughput to work), by doing something like limiting the flow between 2 segment based on the number of connexion between them or some smarter things by pro-game-dev. Then the difficulty some players faced and blame wrongly on the system will still be present to constitute a fun puzzle to solve for me.

I can see also other people expecting my power plant will work in the future, and i think this means there is still a discrepencies in what players think the system will be which may be the kind of things devs want to adress in the future FFF so as to get feedback from players that is more accurate.

[mmmPI]

[Koub] One can disagree without attacking each other. Please don't start doing so, or I'll have to moderate what I deem too much.

I want to say that i'm sorry if someone felt personnaly offended when i used the lego metaphora, sometimes i use the same metaphora with a watch and a bunch of gears to illustrate situations where the problem is the method used to assemble things and not the pieces themselves.

It occured to me that maybe an individual could think the beginning of the post is a direct reference to one particular occurence when i used this metaphora and take it personnaly. It was not my intention, nor even something i would be able to keep track of, but which could then have cause the feeling that commenting on a personnal level about an event from the past not in relation with the creation presented in the thread is necessary or desirable.

I can understand how it could be seen that i'm somehow to blame there, not what i think, but i can understand other people may think other things. One can send me PM so as to remind me of that occurence and get a chance for a quick clarifiction and dispell of the misunderstanding.

[aka13]

Powerplant from now, with le heckin professional fluid system, totally different to your screenshot:

Screenshot 2024-06-23 141044.png (46.84 KiB) Viewed 823 times

Screenshot 2024-06-23 141143.png (5.77 MiB) Viewed 823 times

You know what changes, when the new fluid mechanics get introduced? I propably can have a beautiful central pumping station, instead of having to build this in three steps, completely over bodies of water.
That's literally it.

Also, it will actually be viable to build it, instead of the stupid solar fields, which are not fun at all:

Screenshot 2024-06-23 141615.png (1.51 MiB) Viewed 819 times

[FuryoftheStars]

You're the person who completely disregarded my (and others?) complaints about fluid mechanics. Seemingly even developers disagreed with you though, because they acknowledged pretty much everything people have been critiquing the fluid mechanics.

Just about all of us have said and agreed that the fluid mechanics as it was needed improving. The difference was our disagreement on how. This latest FFF was the "nuclear" option... just scrap it and make it similar to the electric network. This is not what some of us wanted. I would've rather stayed with the system as it was then to move to... this. Not so much because the old system was somehow more realistic (which I find laughable that some people are calling the 2.0 version more realistic), but because it actually provided a challenge/puzzle to have to figure out. What challenge does the new system provide when, based on my current understanding, you can just run pipes around like power poles and be hunky-dory? And the reason the devs gave for this so far wasn't even ups... but rather because of full speed beaconed setups which are essentially late game/megabasing.

[mmmPI]

Sorry mmmPI, did not see a notification for your reply the other day.

No problem i thought you were convinced by my arguments Now i just imagine you have had so many notification because of your arguing in the other topic. I noticed that i often get moderated so i'd rather avoid it, so that i'm not to blame if it gets locked. I'd rather have my own side-topic which can get locked with no harm in case things go wrong, but it means it's also a side-topic that can be easily ignored, no offense taken

I think we can agree that most people play because they want to relax & have fun. If it gets frustrating then it is usually not fun for many. Life itself can be often frustrating enough already.
Sure some people might find fun in overcoming frustrations. Maybe that is exactly what they need. That is why games like the Souls-like games exist where people can live out their masochist tendencies. Nothing wrong with that. ^^
When it comes sport... for me the main difference of sport is people are doing that for the sake of competition to find out who is best among other participating people. ^^

I find that interesting to read, i can understand that philosophy, i'm not sure i agree with everything as if there were direct causes/consequences, i think we can also see that factorio is sometimes felt like a game as hard as souls-like game, and that many players are adding "masochistic" mods.

Many people don't think Sudoku are fun and relaxing compared to playing football or listening to music, but i suspect factorio's players do, at least more than the average person and Sudoku are also very widespread as a game that is meant to make you think. ( looking at the answer next week = looking for blueprints online = can be used to progress as a way to base speculation on certains things, or realize one's mistake, but filling mindlessly the tiles is not "solving a Sudoku" // give someone that does a lot of a sudoku a book for beginner same kind of disappointement).

The parallel with sport would be excercising to stay healthy vs doing competition against other players. I don't play "against other player" in Factorio, it's more like jogging not a race (although it exists too). It still can be practiced with the idea of pushing's one's limit it wouldn't be called "competitive mindset" but "perfomance mindset". ( i'm not saying i'm ALWAYS playing this way, just that it exist, i have this mindset sometimes // i'm not saying it is removed from the game entirely).

Sure, hooking it all up to a single pipe might look ridiculous. Not saying it doesn't. ^^
Just that I have no problem with it. It is a trade-off that I am personally willing to accept if it makes some of the other quirks many people complained about go away.

You are wrong ! you should change your personnal preference and not accept it, it's infuriating !
My personnal prefence is far better though
That's actually what i wanted to hear on this post x) a rationnal argument FOR the system. I don't think "answering (adjective) complaints" is a "good" argument to convince me, but it is logical, and i can understand your stated personnal preference. I am not convinced it is a "good argument" because i don't think most of the complaints where valid because they mixed genuine observations and people just doing it wrong feeling validated when complaning on that particular topic not realizing their particular complaint are different, to a level where they can't be adressed by any change in game because it is their way of doing things that is flawed.

I am likely not going to hook up a 10k steam turbines on a single pipe either, even if I could do that. I will likely still make separate lines for the sake of modularity and redundancy. Or simply because it is more aesthetic to look at if you build things more symmetrical or whatnot.

I will try to improve the nuclear power plant presented on this post, to either fix it if it doesn't work as is when the expansion is released, or make it exploit even more the mechanism, as my experimental ground to test the future fluid mechanic, to learn about the boundaries and rules of the future system. ( unless Wube forces us to register on facebook to get the expansion or some similar things that would make me not buy the expansion )

Well, why not. I am an advocate of the devil & a connoisseur of cursed things.

I think the power plant presented should not work because it would mean that a single pipe has infinite throughput. It is not making sense to me that you can have more and more and more water supposedly flowing from picture to the other, the water has to go through some physical places, that are limited, if the liquid teleport though (infinite speed ) it means infinite throughput regarding the math linking throughput, volume, and speed. So i'm curious to see how in practice it is implemented, because "the devil is in the details"

Sure, if you don't know where to look things up then you will stumble around in the dark until you eventually have enlightening moments. ^^

But that does not mean that the math for most things has not been solved already by other people. Because as I posted previously, the math for the flow capacity per pipe distance has been solved a long time ago. No matter how much you experiment around you cannot break those numbers. And the geeky people (among which I also counted) designed for example nuclear plants with those numbers in mind 6-7 years ago already.

In general games like Factorio tend to be the type where people spend a lot of time with open Wiki/Excel pages or browsing some forum or reddit thread. If you know where to look you will have a much easier time figuring out why something works in a particular fashion, because there is always that one geek who goes above and beyond with a particular issue and finds numbers/solutions to work with and often also explanations why it is like that.

To me this sound like a whole lot of reasons to dismiss the complaints about players not understanding the fluid system to the point where it need to be changed.
I'm not sharing exactly your description of the typical player though, i think you described the type of players that WILL NOT COMPLAIN. ^^

Now we can discuss that this is generally above what many people want to do when playing a game. Most people probably hate reading through tons of cotton dry wiki pages related to the math behind something or even creating spreadsheets. That leads us to the point where people then continuously complain about the same thing over & over again because it is also beyond their interest to figure things out in such in-depth.

I think you don't do that to PLAY THE GAME, it's unfair to say the game need that to be played, you do that to understand EVERYTHING in the game, but then one doen't complain because one is going the extra mile on ones own will. I think it has been demonstrated over the last 10 years that it was in fact possible to do so much things with the previous system that i'm wondering what could be the new things announced in the FFF that are possible and were not foreseen

I think the people who do not want to read full wiki can't expect at the same time to understand everything, and have a game that is fun and interesting, and complex with lots of depth ... I send you a PM with a humorous story about it

Yea, people copy&pasting blueprints from someone else is what many do. Inherent issue of the blueprint sharing feature being present. ^^
It would likely be more "do it yourself" if sharing blueprints would not exist, but then people would likely complain about lots of other things as well.

There is no blueprint sharing feature in game though, there could be like the mod server, maybe people would spend more time comparing them and their trade off instead of using the one they found. I'm still not convinced that "because the math were found out years ago" there was not room to make new blueprints

[mmmPI]

What a funny line I don't know if I count as pro, but I assume I'm somewhat proficient after building lots of systems using fluids, including many different tileable and not tileable nuclear reactor setups in the multi GW range. I say I fully understand the 1.1 fluid system, with all its quirks and its unpredictability. I can deal with everything it brings. And I'm fully open to the new system. You cannot reject it before you even used it.

i always assumed pro means professionnal not proficient, so you're only semi pro if you do not make a living and you're just proficient, but not quiting i think is part of what makes players proficient, that's kind of the lesson to learn in hard systems

Look it the other way round: Imagine the game always came with the 2.0 fluid system. You play this for years, never knowing any different. Now there's an update that introduces a different system advertised as "more realistic", known by us from the 1.1 game. Imagine the outcry and shitstorm, because all bigger fluid builds suddenly stop working properly. People try fixing and fail, because it's so different with longer distance pipes and high throughput. Even more people would leave the game, because a "broken mechanic" was introduced with no reason other than some rather irrelevant goal of "more realism". Seeing it from that perspective, no one would embrace the 1.1 system.

They wouldn't know all that, they would be like "hey finally fluid not teleporting, this game was literally unplayable" , "finally we have realistic fluid"
With more information on the new system the comparaison and trade-off will be more informed.

[mmmPI]

Powerplant from now, with le heckin professional fluid system, totally different to your screenshot:
You know what changes, when the new fluid mechanics get introduced? I propably can have a beautiful central pumping station, instead of having to build this in three steps, completely over bodies of water.
That's literally it.
Also, it will actually be viable to build it, instead of the stupid solar fields, which are not fun at all:

I'm sure your stations are already beautiful, but it will be even easier to predict the fluid splitting on junctions in the future, i remember it was a point you mentionned in a previous discussion, maybe it can be leveraged to create new designs that the devs mentionned in a FFF that were not possible with previous system. That would be for me more reason to cope. Than saying it will allow to make the same design easily. (the design i posted on this thread doesn't work at all currently, "due to fluid mechanic", whereas the one you posted to me just look the same but it is different in functionning and the reflexion process that leaded to it is more complex and "deep" , providing source of questions to the players with tools to solve them in various ways more or less satisfying, with the maybe "perfection" being only in theory or very very difficult to achieve).

To me the main problem for me personnaly was UPS cost. and the main GAIN is UPS , but it wasn't announced how much to expect either or i missed it ^^

Sometimes you say i'm on your ignore list, sometimes you say nice things, so i'm not sure it is a good idea for me to try and answer, but i did my best.

[mmmPI]

Just about all of us have said and agreed that the fluid mechanics as it was needed improving. The difference was our disagreement on how. This latest FFF was the "nuclear" option... just scrap it and make it similar to the electric network. This is not what some of us wanted. I would've rather stayed with the system as it was then to move to... this. Not so much because the old system was somehow more realistic, but because it actually provided a challenge/puzzle to have to figure out. What challenge does the new system provide when, based on my current understanding, you can just run pipes around like power poles and be hunky-dory? And the reason the devs gave for this so far wasn't even ups... but rather because of full speed beaconed setups which are essentially late game/megabasing.

To be fair we were also shown an example of 1 (bad) train unloading, which is also on par with what you do when you play the game, you can't be expected to master the game from day 1, so it make sense that it is taken as illustration for difficulty faced by players when playing/learning with the old system as it was present in train system, in oil system, in nuclear plants.

Maybe i'm in half-denial or something x) but i still think the system was not announced as being like the electrical network.

You can still have a value that you code that is how fast the liquid is allowed to increase in a segment of pipes that just gets connected to another gigantic one filled to the brim based on their relative volume, maybe ? or the number of connexion point ?

In a way you could say that if say the 432 steam engines of my power plants, are connected to the tanks that contains steam. How fast the level of steam balances out between the 2 ?

Sure fluid teleport so throughput thru 1 pipe to me is infinite, you maybe can move 10 fluid per tick instantly to the very end of the steam turbine array, but maybe only 1 or 1000, in those different situation it would means that the steam turbines start instantly, but at which rate ? 100% like if there is enough steam ? or 50% because the relative volume of the 2 network connected makes it slower for steam level to balances out ?

(which I find laughable that some people are calling the 2.0 version more realistic)

Not everyone has an informed view on what is realistic ^^, to me it's the giggle/facepalm reaction when it is phrased in a way that make it obvious this sentence from the FFF was missed :

The new system is a fairly large step back in terms of the "realism" of the fluid simulation in Factorio. But as a game designer, you always have to make trade-offs between what would make sense in the real world and what is fun for a game.

[functional]

You're the person who completely disregarded my (and others?) complaints about fluid mechanics. Seemingly even developers disagreed with you though, because they acknowledged pretty much everything people have been critiquing the fluid mechanics.

Then you go and have fun with your powerplant like in the picture. Meanwhile, the pros will quit the game and look elsewhere.

I've done A&B megabase run powered by Cybersyn which also involves all the petrochem. I don't count myself as a pro, but there's quite a bit of arrogance in pretending that this is some kind of "pro vs. noobs" argument. And I am sorry to say, but if this change made you quit the game, then I'll simply conclude that you're lying and being overly dramatical. Nobody is going to buy that and it would only make you look worse if that was true.

In fact, quite frankly, whole Factorio is simply easy to trivialize by turning everything into large inputs and outputs with trains, especially in vanilla. Everything can be tileable when you just know how to use train networks.

It's when you want to move liquids through other means is that when it becomes annoying. And OP's laughable blueprint is what we'd call a strawman argument. Might as well make a picture of various direct insertion systems and argue that they are possible because the recipes aren't complicated enough, and thus "pros" don't play the game. It's laughable argument at best; if someone wants to make that nuclear power, then by all means really.

[MeduSalem]

No problem i thought you were convinced by my arguments Now i just imagine you have had so many notification because of your arguing in the other topic.

Yea. Sometimes older notifications are overwritten by more recent notifications, but sometimes when I highlight the panel the notifications are gone and I cannot say anymore what it was about. ^^

At other times I also don't reply because I feel like everything worthwhile has been said already. One does not always have to argue everything to death until a consensus is reached. xD

It still can be practiced with the idea of pushing's one's limit it wouldn't be called "competitive mindset" but "perfomance mindset".

Granted, you can also compete against yourself. ^^

[...] I am not convinced it is a "good argument" because i don't think most of the complaints where valid because they mixed genuine observations and people just doing it wrong feeling validated when complaning on that particular topic not realizing their particular complaint are different, to a level where they can't be adressed by any change in game because it is their way of doing things that is flawed.

Well, that is always an issue.
At that point it might also be a good to point out that Factorio is partly classified as a sandbox game. Telling people they are doing things wrong in a sandbox is always... well... problematic. The opinions of what is wrong or right way to play a sandbox type of game will usually spread extremely. ^^

( unless Wube forces us to register on facebook to get the expansion or some similar things that would make me not buy the expansion )

Why would they do something like that.

I think the power plant presented should not work because it would mean that a single pipe has infinite throughput. It is not making sense to me that you can have more and more and more water supposedly flowing from picture to the other, the water has to go through some physical places, that are limited, if the liquid teleport though (infinite speed ) it means infinite throughput regarding the math linking throughput, volume, and speed. So i'm curious to see how in practice it is implemented, because "the devil is in the details"

Good, but how to solve that without re-introducing the other problems again. ^^

I can say what I would find optimal: I want it to perform as simple & neat & performance friendly as Fluids 2.0 will, but possibly with some upper limit on the throughput a pipe segment can have. But the way there is no real "flow" the 2 things seem somewhat difficult to combine.

The most "simple" idea that I had the other day (after reading the FF) was that they could introduce an absolute UPPER limit on how much fluid can be input into a pipe segment per second. Like a static number that just cannot be exceeded or pipes just burst/break from the "pressure". Obviously it would only start to consider that maximum pressure value once the pipe segment is filled to maximum.
Think of it as a material strength of the pipe.

That would enforce a hardcoded limit (that could be moddable of course so mods can introduce even stronger pipes that don't break as easily) on how many actively running fluid producing machines you can possibly hook up to a pipe segment. If you want more producing machines you have to split pipe segments up or shut down some of the producers (with circuit network) or otherwise you have a huge mess.

That would be easy feedback to the player as well, because if you hover over a pipe you could display how close the pipe is to reaching maximum pressure. That is something even average people can work with without the need to look into a wiki page to figure out any math.

I think the people who do not want to read full wiki can't expect at the same time to understand everything, and have a game that is fun and interesting, and complex with lots of depth

Agreed. That is why it requires trade-offs and compromises.

There is no blueprint sharing feature in game though, there could be like the mod server, maybe people would spend more time comparing them and their trade off instead of using the one they found.

Meh. Posting the blueprint strings on a forum or reddit post for everyone to copy & compare pretty much is the same thing. Even if there is not a centralized official platform for that. ^^

I'm still not convinced that "because the math were found out years ago" there was not room to make new blueprints

Sure, people can continue to make new blueprints as much as they like. Not saying it is wrong. Yet when I compare the designs that get posted recently with designs that were posted some years ago, there is not all that much difference in between them. Which I don't wonder about because after all we have to design all around the same limitations.

But anyway that is not much of a deal. The game is getting odler. How long did people expect to be able to find new "efficient" layouts for certain things?

Sure there are some other areas in the game were experiments are still worth doing, like UPS friendly stuff, avoiding train network congestion and all that.

[mmmPI]

In fact, quite frankly, whole Factorio is simply easy to trivialize by turning everything into large inputs and outputs with trains, especially in vanilla. Everything can be tileable when you just know how to use train networks.
It's when you want to move liquids through other means is that when it becomes annoying.

You can use barrels too, if you want to use other means than train, and pipes are too complicated for your needs as you say in the other thread you had countless trouble when playing with modded fluid, that can be used for robots to alleviate the need for too complicated piping. ( pro-tip : this is how it was done before fluid wagon ^^)

And OP's laughable blueprint is what we'd call a strawman argument. Might as well make a picture of various direct insertion systems and argue that they are possible because the recipes aren't complicated enough, and thus "pros" don't play the game. It's laughable argument at best; if someone wants to make that nuclear power, then by all means really.

Unless i'm mistaken you just made yourself a strawman argument by taking a comparaison about imaginary various insertion builds and pretend your "strawman" is saying that "receipe aren't complicated enough". This while at the same time accusing me of doing a strawman, in a topic i posted explaining specifically the reason of the post, that you commented only with personnal attack.

I'm happy my blueprint made you laugh as this feedback is the only constructive thing i'm getting from you on this post so far. Nonetheless i do not advise to use the blueprint in its current state in current version of the game, because it obviously will not work and as stated many times, in the FFF it's mentionned "throughput numbers to tweak" meaning it's probably not going to work as is in 2.0 either.

[mmmPI]

At other times I also don't reply because I feel like everything worthwhile has been said already. One does not always have to argue everything to death until a consensus is reached. xD
Granted, you can also compete against yourself. ^^

I have to compete against myself to not argue about everything to death x), i think it's the most noble challenge to compete against oneself , its the fairest as everyone faces an opponent to its measure

Well, that is always an issue.
At that point it might also be a good to point out that Factorio is partly classified as a sandbox game. Telling people they are doing things wrong in a sandbox is always... well... problematic. The opinions of what is wrong or right way to play a sandbox type of game will usually spread extremely. ^^

In my now moderated story i added a little drama piece where i took as example someone asking for a way in the game to make 3 divisable into 2 equal integers. Someone gotta tell them it's "wrong" to expect that, what is problematic is the request emerging from lack of understanding. That some things aren't possible and the game is not the thing to be blamed for. ( this is more regarding people proposing "solutions" to make the system more realistic and faster in computation at the same fime or refusing to understand that there is a trade-off). But it's not a matter of "right or wrong" as a moral thing, more like a true or false, with things that are exclusive. It shouldn't be problematic to say such things.

Why would they do something like that.

I can see no absolutly no reason, but it's part of the thing that would make not buy the expansion it's part of the 314 rules before buying a game. Not something like the fluid mechanic being changed. Being forced to play online only too like in some MMO would be a real problem. I'm saying this because i keep saying "when the expansion is released i will ..." but there should always be a disclaimer with those kind of statements x). "force majeure" i think doesn't need translatation for english, more like incredibly unlikely event for Wube that i still have seen done in games ^^

Good, but how to solve that without re-introducing the other problems again. ^^

If i knew or thought i knew i would have been making post requesting it to be in the game already like the other people x)

I can say what I would find optimal: I want it to perform as simple & neat & performance friendly as Fluids 2.0 will, but possibly with some upper limit on the throughput a pipe segment can have. But the way there is no real "flow" the 2 things seem somewhat difficult to combine.

The most "simple" idea that I had the other day (after reading the FF) was that they could introduce an absolute UPPER limit on how much fluid can be input into a pipe segment per second. Like a static number that just cannot be exceeded or pipes just burst/break from the "pressure". Obviously it would only start to consider that maximum pressure value once the pipe segment is filled to maximum.
Think of it as a material strength of the pipe.
That would enforce a hardcoded limit on how many machines you can possibly hook up to a pipe segment. If you want more you have to split pipe segments up or otherwise you have a huge mess.
That would be easy feedback to the player as well, because if you hover over a pipe you could display how close the pipe is to reaching maximum pressure. That is something even average people can work with without the need to look into a wiki page to figure out any math.

I can follow this reasonning, like if the nuclear power plant has 432 turbines or only 120 they could have their fluid increasing at different rate when suddenly connecting to the steam tanks based on pressure. But i think , and from reading the other thread, that there won't be a limit on the number of machine per segment as that could be arbitrary and not under player control where a segment decide to form. ( // huge mess) Maybe i'm not getting it.

I can imagine something pretty simple on rules such as : after 10 second the fluid level are balanced in 2 segment that connected, and then from there it means the transfer flow is a percentage of the volume difference between the 2 segment divided by the number of machines that share that incoming fluid, and it is fix every tick if nothing changed.

if things change it's complicated, I'm no pro-game-devs and i have done research as hobby on fluid mechanic simulation ^^ so i'm curious to read some more about it, but at the same time a bit afraid it's a topic the dev will want to avoid because it is controversial, ( judging by the comment number on the FFF after only 2 days ).

Meh. Posting the blueprint strings on a forum or reddit post for everyone to copy & compare pretty much is the same thing. Even if there is not a centralized official platform for that. ^^
Sure, people can continue to make new blueprints as much as they like. Not saying it is wrong. Yet when I compare the designs that get posted recently with designs that were posted some years ago, there is not all that much difference in between them. Which I don't wonder about because
after all we have to design all around the same limitations.
But anyway that is not much of a deal. The game is getting odler. How long did people expect to be able to find new "efficient" layouts for certain things?
Sure there are some other areas in the game were experiments are still worth doing, like UPS friendly stuff, avoiding train network congestion and all that.

Haaa it depend on why and how you design x) I have to agree with you regarding certain things, i post on the official factorio forum, not on third party website , i would do the same with the blueprint, but my friends keep telling me to post stuff on reddit or youtube all the time so i guess i'm just a weirdo regarding this x). I do not often "design around limitations", that would be the case initially, to test those, but mostly then i design for a purpose which is different in many games

But in practice it wouldn't change much to have a centralized platform for players i agree. And blueprint follow some sort of "convergence" i agree too, most of them, due to the (vanilla) game not receiving updates as frequently as it used to since the devs been working on the expansion which is understandable.

It doesn't have much to do with fluid mechanic at this point, or the consequences of the change, but i have already posted my blueprint for the future in the official factorio forum based on my incomplete understanding of the FFF and spend a day or so discussing about it which was fun time offered by Factorio x). Altough i wish i had as much feedback for my non-controversial musical speaker creation than for "rants"

[functional]

In fact, quite frankly, whole Factorio is simply easy to trivialize by turning everything into large inputs and outputs with trains, especially in vanilla. Everything can be tileable when you just know how to use train networks.
It's when you want to move liquids through other means is that when it becomes annoying.

You can use barrels too, if you want to use other means than train, and pipes are too complicated for your needs as you say in the other thread you had countless trouble when playing with modded fluid, that can be used for robots to alleviate the need for too complicated piping. ( pro-tip : this is how it was done before fluid wagon ^^)

And OP's laughable blueprint is what we'd call a strawman argument. Might as well make a picture of various direct insertion systems and argue that they are possible because the recipes aren't complicated enough, and thus "pros" don't play the game. It's laughable argument at best; if someone wants to make that nuclear power, then by all means really.

Unless i'm mistaken you just made yourself a strawman argument by taking a comparaison about imaginary various insertion builds and pretend your "strawman" is saying that "receipe aren't complicated enough". This while at the same time accusing me of doing a strawman, in a topic i posted explaining specifically the reason of the post, that you commented only with personnal attack.

I'm happy my blueprint made you laugh as this feedback is the only constructive thing i'm getting from you on this post so far. Nonetheless i do not advise to use the blueprint in its current state in current version of the game, because it obviously will not work and as stated many times, in the FFF it's mentionned "throughput numbers to tweak" meaning it's probably not going to work as is in 2.0 either.

I don't think you really understand scales I'm talking about if you think bots are a viable alternative. Protip: bots are supbar for UPS even when you optimize distance*. And adding barreling to equation, it makes things even worse. Once again, people who (implicitly) claim to be pros by berating the capabilities of others quite clearly show that they themselves have poor understanding about the subject being discussed.

*to be fair, neither are trains. But belts & trains beat bots, belts and trains by a wide margin.

[mmmPI]

I don't think you really understand scales I'm talking about if you think bots are a viable alternative. Protip: bots are supbar for UPS even when you optimize distance*. And adding barreling to equation, it makes things even worse. Once again, people who (implicitly) claim to be pros by berating the capabilities of others quite clearly show that they themselves have poor understanding about the subject being discussed.

*to be fair, neither are trains. But belts & trains beat bots, belts and trains by a wide margin.

I made a blueprint and picture to help other people understand what i was talking about you can do the same so it is better for me to understand exactly where you face trouble.

[functional]

I made a blueprint and picture to help other people understand what i was talking about you can do the same so it is better for me to understand exactly where you face trouble.

Go look at the FFF and see the exact problems that they discussed and you're (still) ignoring. Those are the exact things I talked about; having to build ton of pumps, having to build almost exclusively underground pipes, having to build large buffers for trains to avoid madzuri loaders.

It really doesn't help your case when you keep ignoring all these problems and not see the obvious; some silly nuclear reactor design being possible is a great tradeoff for not having to deal with the eternally unfun problem of fluid mechanics when you actually play with a base that requires significant amount of it. Want a better system? Then design one that solves aforementioned problems. Or alternatively keep claiming that they aren't, but as we see, developers acknowledged it too.

Furthermore, I could have just accused someone of being a noob for building nuclear power in the first place. Why would you, after all, rather than solar? There's a reason why most featured bases do not deal with nuclear. Yet, I didn't go all "skill issue" here as the essence of my argument.

[mmmPI]

Go look at the FFF and see the exact problems that they discussed and you're (still) ignoring. Those are the exact things I talked about

It was unclear from your earlier intervention what was the exact thing you wanted to add to the discussion, it's much better now thank you.

Furthermore, I could have just accused someone of being a noob for building nuclear power in the first place. Why would you, after all, rather than solar? There's a reason why most featured bases do not deal with nuclear. Yet, I didn't go all "skill issue" here as the essence of my argument.

I'd be happy to discuss about it in private message.

[FuryoftheStars]

And I am sorry to say, but if this change made you quit the game, then I'll simply conclude that you're lying and being overly dramatical. Nobody is going to buy that and it would only make you look worse if that was true.

Why is that hard to believe or make someone look worse if true? I've stopped playing a number of games before because they've changed enough things in it that it was no longer fun for me to play. Why should anyone keep playing it if it's no longer fun after a change? Most likely for the person you were replying to, it's not just this one single thing, either. And even if it was, why does that matter? If that was the one thing keeping them here and now it's not, that's their choice.

Might as well make a picture of various direct insertion systems and argue that they are possible because the recipes aren't complicated enough

This does not compare. Direct insertion is from a single or very small number of machines to another single to very small number of machines, and not flexible/able to change/what have you.

This new system, based on my current understanding (which could very well be wrong... I've been trying to wait for the next FFF before really voicing my opinion), seems to allow for an unlimited number of producers to be on one end of a single, infinite length of pipe with an unlimited number of consumers at the other end. (And yes, I know the consumers can only take a percentage based on how full the pipe is; that doesn't change what I'm against.) Nothing else in this game except electricity is that good.

Maybe i'm in half-denial or something x) but i still think the system was not announced as being like the electrical network.

Well, as I said, it's similar. See my last paragraph just above for part of the reason why I feel that way. The other obviously being the instant transmission, though compared to a full pipe under any system, that is moot. Though again, I could be wrong, but what they've said so far doesn't leave me with much hope.