[Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:51 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:29 pm
eradicator wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:39 am
disentius wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:21 pm
[snip] Satisfies all requirements of OP.[snip]
No it doesn't. It breaks tilability [snip]
7 tiles per wagon is tileable - you have to count the space between wagons, so as long as there isn't an adverse interaction (which there doesn't appear to be in this case) you can use 7 spaces.
Eh, please have another very close look at that design, it does not tile. I already noted that a splitter might make it tilable (though why care if my improved version doesn't need one). Theoretically 7-wide tilable designs exist, but i haven't seen one yet. Feel free to contribute.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Jap2.0 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:08 pm

eradicator wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:51 pm
Jap2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:29 pm
eradicator wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:39 am
disentius wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:21 pm
[snip] Satisfies all requirements of OP.[snip]
No it doesn't. It breaks tilability [snip]
7 tiles per wagon is tileable - you have to count the space between wagons, so as long as there isn't an adverse interaction (which there doesn't appear to be in this case) you can use 7 spaces.
Eh, please have another very close look at that design, it does not tile. I already noted that a splitter might make it tilable (though why care if my improved version doesn't need one). Theoretically 7-wide tilable designs exist, but i haven't seen one yet. Feel free to contribute.
Why exactly won't it tile? Are you saying something like this wouldn't work:
Image.png
Image.png (530.11 KiB) Viewed 2423 times
(apologies for the bad photoshop job, it's the best I can do with what I have at the moment)
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Durentis » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:22 am

I dropped the latest tank design into a closed loop with 3-6 trains hauling raw ore to test it out (the same loop that sustains compressed belts with the last build I posted here). Unfortunately, despite the extra unloading inserter it still unloads too slowly to allow for the train cycle time. Adding a line of long handed inserters between the tank and the stack inserters does make up the difference though.


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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:41 am

Jap2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:08 pm
Why exactly won't it tile? Are you saying something like this wouldn't work:
Yes, that is exactly what i'm saying. Hrng. I think i mangled 7 and 8 width somewhere there. Was wrong, sorry. Thanks for pointing it out.
_____
Durentis wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:22 am
I dropped the latest tank design into a closed loop with 3-6 trains hauling raw ore to test it out (the same loop that sustains compressed belts with the last build I posted here). Unfortunately, despite the extra unloading inserter it still unloads too slowly to allow for the train cycle time. Adding a line of long handed inserters between the tank and the stack inserters does make up the difference though.
Please add pictures when linking blueprints for the sake of people not having factorio running in the background ;).
The wiki says 4 Long-handed are almost exactly 0.5 stack inserters. According to my shitty math you should have 2000/80 - 2000/(27.7*4.5) ≈ 9 seconds cycle time. Do you have proper inter-wagon signals on the stations? Because 9 seconds sounds feasible for a 3-6 (which is still too short for me anyway :p).
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by disentius » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:35 pm

We can fix that:)
Durentis is right, we need extra inserters. His solution works, I have another one:
unload with tank.PNG
unload with tank.PNG (148.7 KiB) Viewed 2381 times
tested with 1-12-5 trains:
testrig 1-12-5.PNG
testrig 1-12-5.PNG (3.86 MiB) Viewed 2381 times
in action:
2 belt per side unload.gif
2 belt per side unload.gif (20.55 MiB) Viewed 2381 times
The counter gives ticks between trains arriving.


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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:17 pm

Nice :). I thought about abusing the "free" side spaces, but i couldn't come up with a quick solution so i gave up yesterday ^^. The two extra stackserters should allow a maximum cycle time of 13 seconds.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Durentis » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:27 am

gg wp :)

(But awesome as that is, I still don't like tanks being usable in this fashion.. -.-)

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:42 am

Durentis wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:27 am
(But awesome as that is, I still don't like tanks being usable in this fashion.. -.-)
(I'm totally fine with them being useable, i just don't like doing it myself. Yet this build is so nice that i'm tempted to do it anyway (or at least code me an actual container with the same dimensions so i don't suffer the UPS overhead of cars :p).)

Also i wonder what the speed of inserter-2-inserter transfer is. If it's as fast as to-container you could skip the extra chests and let the corners do direct transfer.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by disentius » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:02 pm

it is a lot slower. quick test says about 70% of the chest to chest speed.
EDIT:
Still works in my testrig (no chests)

On a entirely unrelated note, [proof of concept] loading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon, 12 inserters per wagon :twisted:
Hardest part was getting the inserters to behave nice.


Loading 4 bb per wagon.gif
Loading 4 bb per wagon.gif (6.36 MiB) Viewed 2346 times



EDIT2
Better version:

better.PNG
better.PNG (267.93 KiB) Viewed 2332 times

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:43 am

First we had chests, then cars, then tanks. So the logical next step would be unloading into trains, right?

So here is the next idea:
1) Make a train station where the cargo wagons are diagonal.
2) Place cargo wagons next to it as buffer so 6 inserters can unload the train.
3) Transfer items into e.g. a tank and unload that onto blue belts.
4) copy the whole setup to the other side of the train station.

Unloading the train with 12 inserters but filling the tanks with only 8 should give some time to bring in the next train. So

5) Compute the time to unload one train, time to transfer to the tank and hence the time to bring in new trains. What's the maximum train length for full throughput on the belts?
Last edited by mrvn on Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am

Dunno, the inserters seem to behave just fine without line splitting. You can also use more cars if you have spare ones j/k. Also i'd prefer the topic stays about unloading, not loading, as those usually have quite different approaches.
loader2.png
loader2.png (238.11 KiB) Viewed 2321 times
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@mrvn: Make your own thread if you want to post a new challenge. Besides diagonal wagons can only have 4 inserters.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:28 am

eradicator wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am
@mrvn: Make your own thread if you want to post a new challenge. Besides diagonal wagons can only have 4 inserters.
It's still the same challenge.

But if diagonal wagons can have only 4 inserters then that isn't a way to get the 4 inserters for a tank back to 6 per wagon.

I guess then you have to be boring and go: cargo wagon -> 6 inserters -> 2 tanks -> 4 inserters (2 each) -> 1 tank -> inserters to belts.

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:16 am

mrvn wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:28 am
It's still the same challenge.
Adding arbitrary new rules makes it a different challenge. And besides use of cars is explicitly discouraged for this thread. So please just stop this. It just makes the thread less readable for interested people.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:57 pm

eradicator wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:16 am
mrvn wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:28 am
It's still the same challenge.
Adding arbitrary new rules makes it a different challenge. And besides use of cars is explicitly discouraged for this thread. So please just stop this. It just makes the thread less readable for interested people.
It wasn't new rules. It was just an idea how to improve on the "4 inserters unloading into tanks" idea that has problems with the train cycle times. Meanwhile some else posted a design using a tank and 2 chests that brings it up to 6 inserters per side. So problem fixed.

Anyway, if the use of cars is explicitly discouraged what is the status on cargo wagons? Is using cargo wagons as buffer chests also discouraged?

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by disentius » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:23 pm

OK. No loading. Check. :twisted:

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:19 pm

mrvn wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:57 pm
Anyway, if the use of cars is explicitly discouraged what is the status on cargo wagons? Is using cargo wagons as buffer chests also discouraged?
My reasons against cars are UPS and non-blueprintability. Blueprintability might be fixed for wagons in 0.17 (depending on if it works for wagons without locos), but i have no clue about UPS of wagons without locos. I'd suspect they're inbetween chests and cars somewhere. Someone should make a benchmark for that.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by Jap2.0 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:22 pm

eradicator wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:19 pm
mrvn wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:57 pm
Anyway, if the use of cars is explicitly discouraged what is the status on cargo wagons? Is using cargo wagons as buffer chests also discouraged?
My reasons against cars are UPS and non-blueprintability. Blueprintability might be fixed for wagons in 0.17 (depending on if it works for wagons without locos), but i have no clue about UPS of wagons without locos. I'd suspect they're inbetween chests and cars somewhere. Someone should make a benchmark for that.
Yeah, I don't think that locos are required for blueprints in 0.17 (it would be really nice if it would work for all vehicles). I performance is dependent entirely on inventory size*access rate (i.e. inserters), but I may be wrong.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by eradicator » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:35 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:22 pm
Yeah, I don't think that locos are required for blueprints in 0.17 (it would be really nice if it would work for all vehicles). I performance is dependent entirely on inventory size*access rate (i.e. inserters), but I may be wrong.
You are wrong. Cars "consume" more UPS than chests just for existing because of all the additional car logic attached to them (free movement, weapons, rotatable collision, etcpp). Just ask anyone in the car-belt crowd. Ofc it's not "oh noez my UPS dropped to 10" just because you build a hundred cars. But all the things add up. Though yea...the increased inventory size of cars (and the fact that they have more than one inventory) additionally makes them even more expensive for in/out-serting. I have my doubts about blueprintable cars becoming vanilla though. As far as i remember a dev said somewhere (quite a while ago) that they didn't want to give additional incentives to abuse the "weird" car collision boxes.
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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by golfmiketango » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:38 am

quyxkh wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:54 pm
disentius wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:52 pm
Damn. totally forgot the unload to splitter thingy. thanks :)
Oh, God, somebody got a stack inserter plus a longhand feeding a car, and since you can put cars on belts . . .
Man that is one entertaining video. Portrait of a full-on obsessive minmax vision quest. Imagine his disappointment when he finds this thread :)

Perhaps my empathy is just self-pity in disguise but I can't help but think this guy deserves a Fields Medal or something for implementing all that stuff.

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Re: [Experiment] Unloading 4 compressed blue belts per wagon.

Post by knightelite » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:57 am

Image

Here is my submission to this thread:

Gif link: https://gfycat.com/GroundedWindingCod

Won't be balanced across chests when unloading though.

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