0.13 Smart supply-train loader + other solutions

[siggboy]

Describing my own solutions help me (a lot) with thinking about them, and often it leads to finding better solutions.

Many programmers who have to solve very difficult problems try to teach/explain it to somebody else for that reason -- it also helps the teacher.

I've had that experience, only when I explained my approach/solution to somebody else I fully understood it myself.

It also serves as notes for me in case I forget what I did or why I did it in a certain way.

[MindChanger]

Yes, you are right, maybe it is good way of learning and understanding whole created pattern. I had some things like that too, I found in my code some possible bugs (which were rare, but could happen) and due to that I fixed them before problem occured. But for lazy person like me it is hard to find enough power to go through whole complicated system, understand it again and then properly describe it.

By the way am I wrong or mostly programmers make some fun about creating stuff using circuit networks? I am actually beginner Android developer (after studies, don't have work yet, will look for work soon)

[siggboy]

Making stuff with circuit networks is a form of low-level programming. I don't know why you would make fun of somebody who does that if you're a programmer yourself.

You make fun of people who enjoy PHP and actually think it's a brilliant language. Or Java. Or Visual Basic.

In fact, some low level programming languages were created that were deliberately designed to be difficult to use (Brainfuck, for example, and the programming language that only uses white space).

I don't think combinators were designed to be hard to use, just for a different purpose than people like XKnight use them. What he enjoys is basically pushing the envelope as far as he can, and take the game to the next level that way.

[MindChanger]

Well I agree. By saying this about programmers I am just curious if this is what we programmers like or other people likes to try to create algorithms too.
Maybe even factorio would be good for people before university to try out if they like solving problems like that, because as you said, it is some kind of programming too, maybe it owuld help making decisions if to be programmer or not, because as I see a lot of programmers (compared to "normal" people ) like building logic systems in Factorio. I don't know if it is because of our skill we developed as programmers or the joy that we got from creating this kind of stuff

[siggboy]

Factorio is a game for people who like to tinker.

Computers are universal machines, the ultimate tinkerer's toy. I think it's not a coincidence that many Factorio addicts have an IT background.

[XKnight]

Still working on the Holy Grail:
- 9 combinators + 2 inserters
- wagon supplied with 40 not full different stacks at full speed without waiting for output inserter
- work with stack inserters and filter inserters
- tested with not empty output wagon
- 5/9 combinators have good design from my point of view (4 will be redesigned)
- almost forgot: work as expected with any tech level

Insider's info:

[MindChanger]

Oh I see. Looks pretty nice, I think it is now best solution.

Do you change first filter signal? It can cause trouble if first signal filter gives item that is full in wagon
Also how do you know when to stop loading?


I see you're just changing supplied items, can't guess how without any constants :p
I guess it is working on IDs of item types.

Maybe it would be good to implement here "closing filters" like I did in my lastest solution when for example unloading inserter starts to unload (it is signal that this item cannot be moved to the train).
Then train could be set to "inactivity mode", so it will leave as soon as it is loaded.

[XKnight]

Do you change first filter signal? It can cause trouble if first signal filter gives item that is full in wagon

No, this is made naturally.

Also how do you know when to stop loading?

In current version it will never stop, trying again and again to insert items, but when I add full stack support end condition will be natural (wagon is full or no activity).

Maybe it would be good to implement here "closing filters" like I did in my lastest solution when for example unloading inserter starts to unload (it is signal that this item cannot be moved to the train).

Not necessary, this is already handled by other logic.

Also it looks like you can overload blue chest.

Blue chest always has less than 1 stack of each item, it will never overflow because its size is bigger than wagon.

Waiting for robots as you don't magazine items for the system. Robots have to deliver all those items on a go, if item magazines are far away this will last really long time.

It is a problem of this video, I queued too many items from the logistics network within a short amount of time and it became overloaded. But if everything work as expected, chest will be almost always full.

Edit:

I see you're just changing supplied items, can't guess how without any constants :p

Constants are located inside the topmost combinator, I decided to use it instead of 4 const combinators.
So you can use 3 tiles and change this constants manually, or you can use 2 tile and forget about this stuff once it is built.

I see u're playing with ids probably of those items, that's why those item types are like in crafting order

I didn't bother with some specific item set for this stress test, so I just take the first items which I found.

[MindChanger]

Okay looks nice. How do you change those filters? This is interesting one

[XKnight]

You will have to wait till the day after tomorrow, because I won't have access to the PC in a few days.

If user wants something he could set his own constants that would be multiplied *1000 (or so) and added to supply chest to "unlock" supply of desired item

Yes, extra combinators for the extra functionality.

[MindChanger]

Okay this one is pretty cool and I think it will be hard to beat your system.

also this constants trick is pretty nice too, but I wonder if construction will copy the signal of user will have to set it up.

I think I will wait for your blueprint of changing filters, without it I am not able to come up with any better sollution

[siggboy]

also this constants trick is pretty nice too, but I wonder if construction will copy the signal of user will have to set it up.

It's not preserved in blueprints, you need to initialize it from constant combinators which you can then remove. (Which is why I don't really get the point of this hack, it does nothing for you except save a few tiles of space, maybe.)

It's maybe legit when you want to make a super-compact LED array (digital display), because in that case having fewer combinators makes it look nicer.

[MindChanger]

Yea I agree with u, I would keep somewhere those constant combinators. I am curious how he did filter changing for blue chest. With that blue chest can supply a lot of different items without looking at filtering limit, which is nice.
With possibility to change dynamically filtering I could upgrade my system and it would work nicely too.

I think I understand Knight's filter changing and why there is no constant combinator. Initially there are different numbers and they are increased in the loop. When some value is achieved then signal of items is being restarted (or so) and this changes order of filters. Constant combinator with different values would change counting (some would be faster etc.) so there can't be constant combinator. But I got no idea how to achieve different number output for items with different stack size tho, for example tank should have numer one (to not block chest), other items should got different once etc.

Okay, I think I got idea how to achieve this. Adding constant with - items for different items, so it will limit output numbers of items so for xample set limit 96 (robots can add more than 3 items) and for tank use constans -95, so it will give only one tank. This way blue chest will be filled properly.


XKnight: If your system works as I think it works you can try to use my constants copier (first page). It will be easier to setup your build like that (after blueprint constant combinators will no loger have to be deleted). If you want ofc.

[Case]

hey mate ...
Could you check out my solution? I'm not entirely sure why it works but so far it passed all tests.
1) load to full from empty
2) load to full from 1 item for each filter in the cargo
3) load to full from various items for each filter in the cargo

It needs no filter in the station container .. only the cargo wagon has a filter (set your desired items there and you are good)
If the chest has items that fit in the cargo wagon it loads till the stack is full.

I had a quite big first solution and after starting to remove things that don't break the system .. this is what was left. Like I said I'm not entirely sure why it works .. maybe you can show me that there is still something fishy about it?

The only flaw I spotted so far is if the provider chest has not enough items for lets say roboports it can get in an endless loop .. but the system does not get stacked (I can make a little video about it if needed - its hard to explain for me )

Image

Support Loader

SupportLoader.jpg (1014.44 KiB) Viewed 5776 times

Blueprint

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[siggboy]

I had a quite big first solution and after starting to remove things that don't break the system .. this is what was left. Like I said I'm not entirely sure why it works .. maybe you can show me that there is still something fishy about it?

That's the spirit, that's how I like to think about solutions as well. I'm not going to be the judge here (let XKnight do it ) but if it works as advertised I'd say this is awesome.

[MindChanger]

Will check it now and edit this post after tests \

I put in blue chest 100 rails and belt got stuck, when I put more rails (or something, don't remember) inserters were working all the time

[Case]

Will check it now and edit this post after tests

Cool, thanks mate

[Case]

Will check it now and edit this post after tests \

I put in blue chest 100 rails and belt got stuck, when I put more rails (or something, don't remember) inserters were working all the time

lemme check if I messed up the blueprint...

Edit: hmm blueprint looks fine.. do you have 0.13.6? and max stack inserter size?

Edit: hmm .. I tested it
1) all empty (chest/wagon/belt) filter in wagon set to 1 stack of rails
2) put 100 rail in blue chest
3) move locomotive in place ... 97 in wagon 3 on belt
4) added 100 more rails .. 100 in wagon 96 in blue chest rest on belt
I don't know it works .. anything different for your system compared to mine?

[MindChanger]

Will check it now and edit this post after tests \

I put in blue chest 100 rails and belt got stuck, when I put more rails (or something, don't remember) inserters were working all the time

lemme check if I messed up the blueprint...

nevermind! I know what happened. I put single item type and belt got stuck because of not working inserter. 2nd bug could happen because of 1 item type.

I got 0.13.4 and full tech

[MindChanger]

It is going in loop if you put for example 99 silver plates and got some silvver plates in blue chest