, computers.
- labs2.png (2.87 MiB) Viewed 3155 times
Configuration:
- Filter inserters: set whitelist
- Combinators: each → each × −1
- Constant combinator: 8 for each science pack
Botless labs
Botless labs
No sushi, no bots. Only two-way chaining.
Configuration:
Configuration:
Re: Botless labs
You will get congestion sooner or later, because it's not predictable in the long run how the chained labs will pull their science packs. And it can happen one color isn't picked up for some time, so it accumulates in front of a filtering inserter, and only other packs are allowed by the inserter whitelist. So the whole thing stalls. It's also not robust against one science pack not being produced for a short time accidentally, so the inserters have only that pack in their filter, but the inserter is clogged with other packs on the belt.
I tried many sushi belt implementations (they have item mixing in common with your setup), but was never fully satisfied with the result. The labs at the end of the sushi ring often got not enough packs, so they stayed inactive. I was also not able to successfully chain labs with higher speeds. Without modules or higher lab speeds it will work, but starting with some certain speed, it becomes unreliable and labs suffer shortages.
The only setup I was able to make rock solid is a setup with dedicated lanes and no direct lab-to-lab feeding. Each pack gets its own belt lane. 7 packs need 7 lanes, so 4 belts are required.
The final lab challenge is to get 4 belts near each lab in the end. 1 lab, 4 sides per lab, 3 tiles per lab side, 4 belts, 4 inserters. This is the puzzle to solve.
I tried many sushi belt implementations (they have item mixing in common with your setup), but was never fully satisfied with the result. The labs at the end of the sushi ring often got not enough packs, so they stayed inactive. I was also not able to successfully chain labs with higher speeds. Without modules or higher lab speeds it will work, but starting with some certain speed, it becomes unreliable and labs suffer shortages.
The only setup I was able to make rock solid is a setup with dedicated lanes and no direct lab-to-lab feeding. Each pack gets its own belt lane. 7 packs need 7 lanes, so 4 belts are required.
The final lab challenge is to get 4 belts near each lab in the end. 1 lab, 4 sides per lab, 3 tiles per lab side, 4 belts, 4 inserters. This is the puzzle to solve.
Re: Botless labs
I'm a very recent convert to using sushi belts for (megabase) labs. It's true that since a sushi belt is always flowing, rather than backed up as with a more conventional system, the labs at the back of the queue sometimes have to wait for the ingredients they want. But as long as you are not trying to run the belts at 100% capacity, the waits are manageable. The space savings, and consequent beacon efficiency improvements, are substantial.
Yes, chaining is just a train-wreck at high lab speeds.I was also not able to successfully chain labs with higher speeds. Without modules or higher lab speeds it will work, but starting with some certain speed, it becomes unreliable and labs suffer shortages.
I just ran two belts each side, with old-fashioned long-arm inserters for the further belts. They were fast enough. The beacon rows are then at right-angles to the belts, which tunnel under them.The only setup I was able to make rock solid is a setup with dedicated lanes and no direct lab-to-lab feeding. Each pack gets its own belt lane. 7 packs need 7 lanes, so 4 belts are required.
The final lab challenge is to get 4 belts near each lab in the end. 1 lab, 4 sides per lab, 3 tiles per lab side, 4 belts, 4 inserters. This is the puzzle to solve.
Re: Botless labs
For me, it's the other way round. I took from others and developed myself many sushi belt concepts, but all of them were never successful in the long run. Yes, they're super compact and look very elegant, but they're not robust enough in the end, and they don't give maximum throughput. So in the end, I developed setups with dedicated lanes.
But this isn't fully beaconed, is it? Or it is a sushi belt. I'm speaking of the classic 8-beacon rows, where each lab is touched by 8 beacons. There is simply not enough space to fit an inserter, underground entry and underground exit for 4 different belts with dedicated lanes. Only for Sushi belts, since the returning belt can run underground most of the time. This has to fit in 12 tiles per lab, 2 fields of 2x3 tiles, and additionally you need space for the power grid.I just ran two belts each side, with old-fashioned long-arm inserters for the further belts. They were fast enough. The beacon rows are then at right-angles to the belts, which tunnel under them.
I ran such a setup with a terrific sorter and mixer I found here in the forum, but I had to realize even this thing will clog without ability to unclog, if one of the science packs is temporarily missing. I added a circuit to stop the belts if one pack is missing, but an issue still remained if research consumed only 6 of the 7 packs and the one missing pack was switched due to different research. It was simply not stable enough.
Then I created a 12-beacon setup for labs, the only 12-beacon setup I use. One lab surrounded by 12 beacons, this has enough space for all 4 belts and is tileable.
At full operation (88-90/s per science, i. e. 2 blue belts for each science) it's consuming 369 MW, while the 8-beacon sushi belt setup with the same capacity consumed 272 MW and 1/3 of the labs are often inactive but must be present, to fully consume the belts. That's a difference with power consumption, but not too much.
Re: Botless labs
The first part sounds like the space intended for the missing pack for used by the other packs? Then you'll need something to the part exceeding the intended ratio once that pack becomes available again. Or make sure missing packs result in empty belt.Tertius wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:54 am I ran such a setup with a terrific sorter and mixer I found here in the forum, but I had to realize even this thing will clog without ability to unclog, if one of the science packs is temporarily missing. I added a circuit to stop the belts if one pack is missing, but an issue still remained if research consumed only 6 of the 7 packs and the one missing pack was switched due to different research. It was simply not stable enough.
I had once used a 4 packs per side setup working without issues regardless of consumption or missing packs. I can dig up blueprints after work if you're interested.
The setup was unbeaconed, but beacons only increase the throughout requirement. If that exceeds 45 items/s, no single belt solution can help you.
Re: Botless labs
Yes, that was exactly the case. It was a purely mechanical mixer that relied on splitter ratio and belt speed. 2 splitters for 1/2*1/2=1/4 for the belt with the 4 packs and the other belt limited the input by the throughput of a yellow belt to make a 1:3 distribution on a blue belt for the belt with the 3 packs. I didn't realize that while one pack was missing, the spaces on the sushi belt were not left empty but were filled with other packs still supplied, and when the missing packs were flowing again, the sorter for the returning bottles clogged, because more bottles returned than sent out. There was not a single space on the belt at that moment, all research stalled, and no chance to put the additional bottles anywhere to create space.
My conclusion: only active control with circuits that is able to leave empty spaces for missing bottles is able to create a robust sushi belt.
And this was the moment I decided to try a setup with dedicated lanes. I have stuck with this approach, because it is able to make all labs work continuously in addition. With sushi belts, always some bottles travel beyond the last lab, the whole circle, so the throughput is less than the belt is be able to provide.
My conclusion: only active control with circuits that is able to leave empty spaces for missing bottles is able to create a robust sushi belt.
And this was the moment I decided to try a setup with dedicated lanes. I have stuck with this approach, because it is able to make all labs work continuously in addition. With sushi belts, always some bottles travel beyond the last lab, the whole circle, so the throughput is less than the belt is be able to provide.
Re: Botless labs
I found two purely mechanical variants while digging through my saves.
The first one uses a filler item for missing science packs but is a bit slow to remove the filler once science packs become available again.
The second one leaves empty space and is what i had in mind in my earlier post.
Other than replacing the item sources with infinity chests and loaders, both blueprints are taken straight from the spaghetti they happened to be in — I didn't spend time making them pretty.
Re: Botless labs
8 beacons per lab, but only 2 or 4 labs per beacon, so not really worth the cost of speed-3 beacons:
- Multibelt labs.png (1.09 MiB) Viewed 2901 times
Here's my latest 1200 spm sushi lab layout:I ran such a setup with a terrific sorter and mixer I found here in the forum, but I had to realize even this thing will clog without ability to unclog, if one of the science packs is temporarily missing.
It's only minimally 'sushi', in that no lane actually has more than 2 different items on it. One item stealing space from a missing one is impossible, since each item passes through a yellow lane before ending on a red delivery belt. I do use a circuit control for the black and purple inputs, since they go for long periods without being used, and even a small leakage on to the circulating belt can eventually build up and clog the return channel.
Re: Botless labs
The solution from your screenshot uses 5 beacons per 2 labs (if infinitely tiled), 16.45 research speed per lab, i. e. 32.9 per 5 beacons.
I made a 12 beacon solution, shown below, which has 5 beacons per 1 lab (if infinitely tiled), 23.45 research speed. Ok, that's less effective in terms of beacons per research. It's better for UPS, because it uses half the inserters.
However, I don't know why I was obsessed with only using blue belts to feed. Once you also accept red belts and make the lab lines shorter (which you should anyway), you can just fold two different colors with underground belts using a very direct approach:
No blueprint, it's just WIP. I don't really know, why I messed with all the other designs. This is what I was trying to create in the first place. It's not that nice and colorful as your 8-beacon setup, but as far as I see it, it has the best energy efficiency, material use and space footprint.
I made a 12 beacon solution, shown below, which has 5 beacons per 1 lab (if infinitely tiled), 23.45 research speed. Ok, that's less effective in terms of beacons per research. It's better for UPS, because it uses half the inserters.
- Screenshot 2023-08-31 151826.png (693.36 KiB) Viewed 2767 times
- Screenshot 2023-08-31 170118.png (1.28 MiB) Viewed 2767 times
Re: Botless labs
I've never really bothered about the UPS meta-game. If my factory is so big that UPS is suffering, I call that game won and start a new one.
Yes, I think you are right. Maybe I'll take the sushi back off the menu after all.I don't really know, why I messed with all the other designs. This is what I was trying to create in the first place. It's not that nice and colorful as your 8-beacon setup, but as far as I see it, it has the best energy efficiency, material use and space footprint.
Re: Botless labs
I came up with almost exactly this, except with half the number of underground belts; six rows of 28 labs is (just) enough for 2700 SPM. I agree on the aesthetics, although for me the least aesthetically pleasing part of the dedicated science production facility, receiving science packs by train, is distributing seven express belts to 42 belt lanes. I also think 8-beacon setups in general are optimal for all except UPS.Tertius wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:07 pm Once you also accept red belts and make the lab lines shorter (which you should anyway), you can just fold two different colors with underground belts using a very direct approach
[...]
This is what I was trying to create in the first place. It's not that nice and colorful as [Khagan's] 8-beacon setup, but as far as I see it, it has the best energy efficiency, material use and space footprint.
Re: Botless labs
Tertius' screenshot has more tightly woven belts than necessary, but I ended up with 2/3 the number rather than 1/2:
- Woven belt labs.png (445.99 KiB) Viewed 2694 times
But I'll keep my sushi belt version on file as well. If the expansion does increase the number of different science packs from 7 to 10 it will be needed again, since the woven design won't cope past 8, but the sushi design will handle up to 12 (by using blue belts instead of red).
Re: Botless labs
Sorry, I can't count. I meant 2/3 (like your screenshot).
Keeping 8 beacons/lab using woven belts to provide eight lanes, you can also feed three belts through the middle of a row for a total of 14 lanes, but this doubles the space and halves labs/beacon.If the expansion does increase the number of different science packs from 7 to 10 it will be needed again, since the woven design won't cope past 8, but the sushi design will handle up to 12 (by using blue belts instead of red).
Re: Botless labs
This is what I made in the end, 45/s per science or 2700 SPM. And the most work was not the labs of course, it was the lane mixer:
I have to hurry to put this into production, since this kind of blueprint will be obsolete in a year, when the expansion is released
- Screenshot 2023-09-11 004800.png (2.26 MiB) Viewed 2507 times
I have to hurry to put this into production, since this kind of blueprint will be obsolete in a year, when the expansion is released