LTN vs TSM

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je11693
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LTN vs TSM

Post by je11693 »

Hi guys, can someone help explain the pros and cons of using one or the other of these mods? I have no experience of either so looking for some advice about which I should use?

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steinio
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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by steinio »

Pro: both have only a 3-letter name to memorize.
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khalismur
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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by khalismur »

From my modest experience with TSM, I find it to have a bit less impact on UPS for a large base. However, LTN is much more of an elegant solution. HTN is also very interesting and a great solution using the vanilla toolkit.
My go-to is LTN.

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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by je11693 »

khalismur wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:38 pm
From my modest experience with TSM, I find it to have a bit less impact on UPS for a large base. However, LTN is much more of an elegant solution. HTN is also very interesting and a great solution using the vanilla toolkit.
My go-to is LTN.
Thanks. What is HTN and the vanilla toolkit?

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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by khalismur »

vanilla toolkit is the base game without mods. This is HTN.

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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by KrazyTygr »

I prefer TSM for a few reasons -
  • I find it easier to use
  • It does not send multiple trains when a request arises (unlike HTM)
  • Trains are full when the station requests them (unlike LTN which has to send a train to fill when a request is placed)
  • You can place depots near to requester stations for quicker unloading (unlike LTN which does not know where the next delivery will be, so you have a central depot)
  • TSM has no problem with cargo contamination (when a train does not fully unload at the requester) which can occur with LTN, so LTN requires a separate recycling centre at the depot
LTN will get the job done, with fewer trains, but I find that the quicker train response time of TSM is worth the investment of more trains.

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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by GrumpyJoe »

KrazyTygr wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:38 pm
I prefer TSM for a few reasons -
  • ..
  • Trains are full when the station requests them (unlike LTN which has to send a train to fill when a request is placed)
  • You can place depots near to requester stations for quicker unloading (unlike LTN which does not know where the next delivery will be, so you have a central depot)
  • TSM has no problem with cargo contamination (when a train does not fully unload at the requester) which can occur with LTN, so LTN requires a separate recycling centre at the depot
LTN will get the job done, with fewer trains, but I find that the quicker train response time of TSM is worth the investment of more trains.
If you can compare things, i would have no problem with these statements
You could for instance says "i did not like LTN because i ran into .... (these problems)"
Disclaimer: i know nothing about TSM beside a few videos from Tuplex, so I wouldn´t say its better or worse

But i think this is just wrong information

  • in the long run, you wont see a difference in a train already full vs. an empty train at request time. All you have to do is to request soon enough.
  • If you really need that, LTN has network IDs, so you could make sure from what depot the train is coming. Which also is the reason this is just completely wrong, you can have as many depots as you like
  • cargo contamination usually comes from 2 things: wrong request settings resulting in a full requester station, or slow inserters in the early game which cant finish unloading before the timer runs out.
    Both things can be avoided
About HTN:
I tried it briefly on the original server Nilaus showcased in that link. A few words about his description:

Can be implemented early game (only requires Trains and Circuits):
LTN is no longer mid game, for about a year at least. You only need green circuits for the station
Very easy to add new stations to the network (simply stamp down the blueprint)
I have exactly 2 station BPs for LTN and they need one signal to be set
Faster train response time than Logistic Train Network because the trains are waiting at loading stations
See above. Request soon enough and response/load time is no issue

I can see its usecase in heavy modded AB for instance, where you have alot of different items, but dont need it in bulk. But as soon as you have multiple requester stations open, vanilla cant deal with items going the wrong way. If 2 iron trains get requested at the same time by different stations, under vanilla conditions you will have problems or detours.
Limitation: It will dispatch multiple trains under certain conditions so build a train stacker before unloading stations
Its a great idea, but it has its flaws. Not in logic, but in useability

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Optera
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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by Optera »

I'm impressed by VTN/HTN, Train control of vanilla certainly came a long way since LTN was made.
VTN still has some major drawbacks to LTN and TSM though.
- handling different train sizes, and a mix of different modded wagon capacities
- limiting the number of trains going to a stop
- prioritizing stops is also a pain

Between TSM and LTN I'd say try both and pick whatever is more your style.
TSM stores filled trains at providers.
LTN stores empty trains at depots for reuse with different cargo.

LTN has features like reading train composition, controlling trains on a station level with circuit signals and provides an API for mods like LTN Combinator and LTN Manager.
I don't follow TSM, so I can't say if it has similar features.

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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by KrazyTygr »

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:34 pm
KrazyTygr wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:38 pm
I prefer TSM for a few reasons -
  • ..
  • Trains are full when the station requests them (unlike LTN which has to send a train to fill when a request is placed)
  • You can place depots near to requester stations for quicker unloading (unlike LTN which does not know where the next delivery will be, so you have a central depot)
  • TSM has no problem with cargo contamination (when a train does not fully unload at the requester) which can occur with LTN, so LTN requires a separate recycling centre at the depot
LTN will get the job done, with fewer trains, but I find that the quicker train response time of TSM is worth the investment of more trains.
If you can compare things, i would have no problem with these statements
You could for instance says "i did not like LTN because i ran into .... (these problems)"
Disclaimer: i know nothing about TSM beside a few videos from Tuplex, so I wouldn´t say its better or worse

But i think this is just wrong information
  • in the long run, you wont see a difference in a train already full vs. an empty train at request time. All you have to do is to request soon enough.
  • If you really need that, LTN has network IDs, so you could make sure from what depot the train is coming. Which also is the reason this is just completely wrong, you can have as many depots as you like
  • cargo contamination usually comes from 2 things: wrong request settings resulting in a full requester station, or slow inserters in the early game which cant finish unloading before the timer runs out.
    Both things can be avoided
I don't understand - in the three quotes that you quoted from my original post I gave a statement as to why I liked TSM, with a direct comparison with LTN. What more do you want?

You will also notice in my post that nowhere did I mention that I disliked LTN, nor did I state which one was 'better' - I just stated that I prefer TSM. I used LTN for many months before I heard about VTN (from Nilaus), so gave it a try for a while until I got fed up of all my ore trains going to the same requester. So I tinkered with adding more combinators in VTN in order to add a delay to all but the first provider so that only one train was sent. I eventually got this working, but it made for a much more complicated setup, so I looked around and decided to try TSM.

And while there may be solutions to the problems I encountered with LTN, using NetworkIDs etc., this only makes the mod more complicated, so I refer you to my first reason for preferring TSM... I find it easier to use (at present. I reserve the right to change my mind at a later date).

But to finish, I'm not getting into an argument about which mod is better, as everyone will have their own opinion, so just follow the advice given by Optera:
Optera wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:56 pm
Between TSM and LTN I'd say try both and pick whatever is more your style.

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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by GrumpyJoe »

I might have been tired and read "you have to have one central depot"
I might also get slighty triggered by people thinking that everything needs to start working "NOW!", like the already full deliveries. It evens out in the long run. Once you get it running, it doesn´t really matter on average.

Sorry, dont take it personal.

Optera´s advice says it best
I adore his mod, but i wouldn´t include it ony every map, it depends on what the goals are

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Re: LTN vs TSM

Post by Stimpatch »

If you try LTN, help yourself and get a UI improvement for it. Super helpful. Like LTN Tracker (deprecated) or LTN Manager

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