Yeah, huge was probably an exaggeration. It's probably around 50% more, which isn't too bad actually. So around .16 extra acid per slurry. That's not too far from the difference between charcoal and ceramic filtering. I guess the extra stone you get from crushing would be a bigger deal.mrvn wrote:I don't remember that. Both ways need sulfuric acid and I remember it looking similar. It might need more sulfuric acid without crushing to dust but huge amounts? Can you show us your math there please?
[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
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live22morrow
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
I use this design, which produces crushed ore, mineral and crystal catalysts, sulfur and woodpellets from just water, seafloor and air.
No additional sulfur and no Electrolyzers. Excess stone goes to wood pellets and are needed anyway for power and carbon dioxide. And make a bit of charcoal on-side for filtering.
It also allows to consume additional geodes from floatation.
I'm sure, it can be optimized...
No additional sulfur and no Electrolyzers. Excess stone goes to wood pellets and are needed anyway for power and carbon dioxide. And make a bit of charcoal on-side for filtering.
It also allows to consume additional geodes from floatation.
I'm sure, it can be optimized...
Ore and Wood Pellets from Water
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fiery_salmon
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
I use grainy brown version of mud landfill as land under railways.mrvn wrote: And with SeaBlock any excess crushed stone can be turned into much needed landfill. I found the landfill production from mud seriously lacking even if grass looks so much nicer than all that desert. I'm thinking of using landfill from mud to line my stone walkways / roads with grass for aestetic purposes. Should be enough for that.
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
I tested a bit to get a faster start, and I think, that its very important to switch to mineral sludge very early, because its much more efficient than mineralized water ore crystallization and this reduces the amount of the power hungry Electrolyzers.Theaisa wrote:This was pretty much my thought process too, though having the electronics chain set up for the solar panels allows you to more easily build other important things (like fast / filter inserters). I'm not convinced solar panels take less landfill than steam turbines.. the infrastructure for algae farms takes up a lot of space as well. The main weakness of the solar panel approach (and the reason I bring this up) is that it's the only approach that requires you to wait for hours with little progress as you watch the research tick up (and then you need to wait for the panels to be produced!).hewhoispale wrote: The wind turbines needing steel rules them out as an early investment imo.
While the research chain to solar is shorter than better steam engines, steam engines take relatively little infrastructure investment to be self-maintaining (just an algae farm complex and fuel processing setup). While producing solar panels means you are having to get the entire circuit chain setup, which is a huge amount of machines and space, and then you need a million landfills for the space to put down the solar panels.
It feels like a reasonable route is starting turbines -> handful of boilers/engines -> 2nd tier boiler/engine/fuel -> solar panels/accumlulators
I think next time I am going to try the wind turbine approach.. while I agree the steel requirement makes them expensive, it also opens the door for early important tech advancement:
Advanced steel smelting at just 50 green science reduces the price from 26 iron to 18.
Advanced ore refining at another 50 green science allows you to turn 100 sludge into 4 iron for more efficient production.
A wind turbine doesn't give much power, but at a mere 4 copper and 18 iron, they are also incredibly cheap compared to the alternatives, at just 100 green science compared to 250 for solar power and 345 (!) for MK2 boiler/steam and pellets.
A solar panel in comparison costs 28 copper, 7 tin, 4 lead and 60 iron (44 with advanced steel smelting, which makes it a priority but you probably won't have it until later if you rush solar...).
From tests, it takes roughly 4 wind turbines to produce as much power as a solar panel (though wind turbines are much less predictable! can be much less or much more). That means solar panels and wind turbines are actually more or less equal on a cost:mw ratio (unless I am missing something?). I still prefer solar panels because they have a predictable power output (and you can use boilers and steam power as batteries during the night), but wind turbines allows you to ramp up production MUCH faster.
I really like that there are so many paths to get started, though. It's a great testament to how great this mod isThey all seem more or less viable.
Red science is not a big obstacle, even with only 3-4 electrolyzers and mineralized water crystallization
Maybe its also a good idea to invest the starter iron in wind turbines, but not sure. Switching to Smelting too early requires a lot of waiting for the steel needed for crafting furnaces and casting machines. (maybe invest starter iron for that?).
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Just for fun I build a nuclear reactor for SeaBlock. Previous rough estimates indicated 10 geode washing plants would be needed. But it seems to run fine with 8. I'm using both uranium and plutonium with a self balancing logic. First if there is enough plutonium, use the recipe that uses up plutonium. Second if there is any uranium 238, use that up. And last the plutonium producing recipe is used. The reactors prefer uranium fuel cells and only get fuel when steam gets below 150000. Under heavy load the steam gets quite low. Some more steam tanks might be advisable. I didn't concentrate on the reactor part, just on creating fuel for it. The reactor outputs roughly 450 MW and it needs about 20 MW to produce the fuel.
The setup isn't optimal. For example one part has a salination plant while right next to it I clarify salt water. Also there is only enough crystal dust for the first two plants with a minor excess. And way too many electrolyzers. I just put down an existing blueprint for that.
The setup isn't optimal. For example one part has a salination plant while right next to it I clarify salt water. Also there is only enough crystal dust for the first two plants with a minor excess. And way too many electrolyzers. I just put down an existing blueprint for that.
blueprint
- nuclear.png (11.44 MiB) Viewed 8652 times
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
I think going red science right away to get mineral sludge is definitely the right move. After that, I think it's worth it to make 50 green science for the advanced steel smelting - by hand, if necessary (-50% cost for steel plates is massive).jodokus31 wrote:I tested a bit to get a faster start, and I think, that its very important to switch to mineral sludge very early, because its much more efficient than mineralized water ore crystallization and this reduces the amount of the power hungry Electrolyzers.Theaisa wrote:This was pretty much my thought process too, though having the electronics chain set up for the solar panels allows you to more easily build other important things (like fast / filter inserters). I'm not convinced solar panels take less landfill than steam turbines.. the infrastructure for algae farms takes up a lot of space as well. The main weakness of the solar panel approach (and the reason I bring this up) is that it's the only approach that requires you to wait for hours with little progress as you watch the research tick up (and then you need to wait for the panels to be produced!).hewhoispale wrote: The wind turbines needing steel rules them out as an early investment imo.
While the research chain to solar is shorter than better steam engines, steam engines take relatively little infrastructure investment to be self-maintaining (just an algae farm complex and fuel processing setup). While producing solar panels means you are having to get the entire circuit chain setup, which is a huge amount of machines and space, and then you need a million landfills for the space to put down the solar panels.
It feels like a reasonable route is starting turbines -> handful of boilers/engines -> 2nd tier boiler/engine/fuel -> solar panels/accumlulators
I think next time I am going to try the wind turbine approach.. while I agree the steel requirement makes them expensive, it also opens the door for early important tech advancement:
Advanced steel smelting at just 50 green science reduces the price from 26 iron to 18.
Advanced ore refining at another 50 green science allows you to turn 100 sludge into 4 iron for more efficient production.
A wind turbine doesn't give much power, but at a mere 4 copper and 18 iron, they are also incredibly cheap compared to the alternatives, at just 100 green science compared to 250 for solar power and 345 (!) for MK2 boiler/steam and pellets.
A solar panel in comparison costs 28 copper, 7 tin, 4 lead and 60 iron (44 with advanced steel smelting, which makes it a priority but you probably won't have it until later if you rush solar...).
From tests, it takes roughly 4 wind turbines to produce as much power as a solar panel (though wind turbines are much less predictable! can be much less or much more). That means solar panels and wind turbines are actually more or less equal on a cost:mw ratio (unless I am missing something?). I still prefer solar panels because they have a predictable power output (and you can use boilers and steam power as batteries during the night), but wind turbines allows you to ramp up production MUCH faster.
I really like that there are so many paths to get started, though. It's a great testament to how great this mod is
Red science is not a big obstacle, even with only 3-4 electrolyzers and mineralized water crystallization
Maybe its also a good idea to invest the starter iron in wind turbines, but not sure. Switching to Smelting too early requires a lot of waiting for the steel needed for crafting furnaces and casting machines. (maybe invest starter iron for that?).
Then I'd probably do nothing but make wind turbines for a few hours, put up a couple of electrolyzers that do nothing but make landfill and just increase production.
I might even give a new game a start this weekend, just to see how efficient it is
Getting started is slow, though.. you will spend hours waiting for materials, there's no getting around that.-
fiery_salmon
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Is there something that I am missing by ignoring mark II and later of various buildings? I replaced boilers and steam engines by improved version (for massive power efficiency boost), used sorting machine II for advanced recipes, larger chemical plant for recipes and various pipes for color-coding refinery.
But as my power problems are solved by solar panels I see no point in starting upgrade treadmill (electrolysers II and later electrolysers III, replacing radars by radar II)...
I am even thinking about making mod that will hide some spurious objects that clutter menus.
Am I missing something by ignoring other "upgraded" building?
But as my power problems are solved by solar panels I see no point in starting upgrade treadmill (electrolysers II and later electrolysers III, replacing radars by radar II)...
I am even thinking about making mod that will hide some spurious objects that clutter menus.
Am I missing something by ignoring other "upgraded" building?
These two seems to be a good ideas. Also, for me automation was one of initial goals - I dislike handcrafting (and I am starting lazy bastard run - now I have all necessary supplies delivered to place that will make red circuits).Theaisa wrote: I think going red science right away to get mineral sludge is definitely the right move. After that, I think it's worth it to make 50 green science for the advanced steel smelting - by hand, if necessary (-50% cost for steel plates is massive).
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
the electrolysers are 50% faster and need only 16% more power, more efficient!
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fiery_salmon
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Fun fact: boiler I is better than boiler II for steam cracking in refinery (it produces more steam due to lower temperature, despite higher efficiency).
Is power limitation from early game returning later? Some super power-hungry process, like producing some part of a science pack from large amounts of energy?
Yes, but I am at stage of game when power is no concern - and from what I see typically solar panels will appear before electrolyser II. Maybe it will matter later, but for now I am designing refinery - with both mall and research not consuming anything as I exhausted red+green sciences and buffers are full in mall and in any other place.ukezi wrote:the electrolysers are 50% faster and need only 16% more power, more efficient!
Is power limitation from early game returning later? Some super power-hungry process, like producing some part of a science pack from large amounts of energy?
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
MK2++ are still faster (so less space required), and they become relevant again once modules come into play. Production modules are much, much better on higher tier machines...fiery_salmon wrote:Fun fact: boiler I is better than boiler II for steam cracking in refinery (it produces more steam due to lower temperature, despite higher efficiency).
Yes, but I am at stage of game when power is no concern - and from what I see typically solar panels will appear before electrolyser II. Maybe it will matter later, but for now I am designing refinery - with both mall and research not consuming anything as I exhausted red+green sciences and buffers are full in mall and in any other place.ukezi wrote:the electrolysers are 50% faster and need only 16% more power, more efficient!
Is power limitation from early game returning later? Some super power-hungry process, like producing some part of a science pack from large amounts of energy?
Quick question:
Is Boiler II still better than Boiler I with Steam Engine 1? Or do you lose more from heat loss than you gain from efficiency?
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live22morrow
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
lt's worse. Just did a quick test. 1 boiler and boiler mk2 each connected to steam engine 1. Outputting to accumulators. Put 1 rocket fuel (225MJ) in each.Theaisa wrote: Quick question:
Is Boiler II still better than Boiler I with Steam Engine 1? Or do you lose more from heat loss than you gain from efficiency?
Steam engine connected to boiler 1 makes 112MJ. Engine connected to mk2 boiler makes 92MJ.
Basically, the engine consumes steam at a constant rate, and if the temperature is higher than the max, the remaining energy gets thrown away. Boiler Mk4 to Steam engine 1 is even worse, only making 75MJ.
Note that the opposite is not true. Connecting a low level boiler to a higher level engine actually seems to increase the total power you gain. Mk3 steam engine and mk3 steam turbine gave me 134MJ for a single rocket fuel.
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
There's a bug with the stable 16.36 release that doesn't like the SeaBlock mod for some reason. Is there an ETA for the stable branch?
All the other mods are loading fine.
Code: Select all
"Failed to load mods: __SeaBlock__/data-updates.lua:557: attempt to index local 'effect' (a number value)-
live22morrow
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
0.16.36 Works fine for me with all mods updated, but there's a conflict with the latest version of Bob's Logistics. The version included in the pack works fine.
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Must be something related to the build on the mod page then. I'll try the pack instead and see if I can do a workaround so versions don't conflict with regular play. Thankslive22morrow wrote:0.16.36 Works fine for me with all mods updated, but there's a conflict with the latest version of Bob's Logistics. The version included in the pack works fine.
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
To speed things up for tests, i used increased gamespeed. Its maybe not fully comparable, because I can not build setups faster.Theaisa wrote: I think going red science right away to get mineral sludge is definitely the right move. After that, I think it's worth it to make 50 green science for the advanced steel smelting - by hand, if necessary (-50% cost for steel plates is massive).
Then I'd probably do nothing but make wind turbines for a few hours, put up a couple of electrolyzers that do nothing but make landfill and just increase production.
I might even give a new game a start this weekend, just to see how efficient it is
After mineral sludge, I also think iron and steel smelting is actually the next best research.
But then, i'm not sure, whether going for windmills is the best, or just rush steam engine 2 (which itself should increase power a bit) and then boiler mk2 and power with carbon.
I think, running boiler/steam engine1 provides so less plus, but building the infrastructure for green algae is needed anyway later. At least, it does not harm, to run mk1-stuff, if ignoring the buildings and space.
I guess, if you use modules/beacons later, it will become a problem.fiery_salmon wrote:Fun fact: boiler I is better than boiler II for steam cracking in refinery (it produces more steam due to lower temperature, despite higher efficiency).
Yes, but I am at stage of game when power is no concern - and from what I see typically solar panels will appear before electrolyser II. Maybe it will matter later, but for now I am designing refinery - with both mall and research not consuming anything as I exhausted red+green sciences and buffers are full in mall and in any other place.ukezi wrote:the electrolysers are 50% faster and need only 16% more power, more efficient!
Is power limitation from early game returning later? Some super power-hungry process, like producing some part of a science pack from large amounts of energy?
If you use mk1 machines, you maybe hide throughput issues, if you want to upgrade later. But I understand, that building a lazy bastard mall for all those buildings is insane without robots.
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Trying to make a mall for all of the machines you need would be crazy, but keeping a stock of commonly used subcomponents is not. Iron and Steel pipes are used in large qtys for many machines so keeping a stack or two of those handy is very convenient, at least once you get your resources production up.jodokus31 wrote:Theaisa wrote: If you use mk1 machines, you maybe hide throughput issues, if you want to upgrade later. But I understand, that building a lazy bastard mall for all those buildings is insane without robots.
Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Supposedly with higher temperature steam the steam engines where now supposed to use proportionally less steam. Doesn't seem to work for me either.live22morrow wrote:lt's worse. Just did a quick test. 1 boiler and boiler mk2 each connected to steam engine 1. Outputting to accumulators. Put 1 rocket fuel (225MJ) in each.Theaisa wrote: Quick question:
Is Boiler II still better than Boiler I with Steam Engine 1? Or do you lose more from heat loss than you gain from efficiency?
Steam engine connected to boiler 1 makes 112MJ. Engine connected to mk2 boiler makes 92MJ.
Basically, the engine consumes steam at a constant rate, and if the temperature is higher than the max, the remaining energy gets thrown away. Boiler Mk4 to Steam engine 1 is even worse, only making 75MJ.
Note that the opposite is not true. Connecting a low level boiler to a higher level engine actually seems to increase the total power you gain. Mk3 steam engine and mk3 steam turbine gave me 134MJ for a single rocket fuel.
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Fahrradkette
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
reason:
boblogistics_0.16.17/migrations/boblogistics_0.16.16.json: ["black-transport-belt", "basic-transport-belt"]
conflicts with:
SeaBlock_0.2.5/prototypes/technology.lua: {type = "unlock-recipe", recipe = "black-transport-belt"}
SeaBlock_0.2.5/data-updates.lua: {'black-transport-belt', 2},
edit:
Fix which worked for me was renaming the entity in SeaBlock
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live22morrow
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Actually, the steam engines seem bugged in another way as well. The level 2 and 3 engines and turbines produce more power than they're given as steam. This means it's actually possible to charge an accumulator array (or fill steam tanks) just by hooking it up to an electric boiler connected to a mk3 steam engine. I managed to charge a 7200MJ accumulator array in 1330 seconds with 22 mk3 steam engines connected to electric boilers. That gives around 240KW per engine boiler pair.
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PaladinOne
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.5
Ran an 'update all mods' this morning and got a crash on launch. Looks like Angel has changed a thing or two in Bio Processing.
Going into data-updates.lua and commenting out this line resulted in a crash on the immediate next line. (Commenting that one out and launching again, same thing. Commenting THAT one out, and I get Fahrradkette's crash from two comments ago.)
Proposal: The three bio-aboretum techs don't exist anymore?
Edit:
Rewriting "fix" for crash:
SeaBlock/data-updates.lua: Comment out lines 640, 641, 642; and also do what Fahrradkette said.
Going into data-updates.lua and commenting out this line resulted in a crash on the immediate next line. (Commenting that one out and launching again, same thing. Commenting THAT one out, and I get Fahrradkette's crash from two comments ago.)
Proposal: The three bio-aboretum techs don't exist anymore?
Edit:
Rewriting "fix" for crash:
SeaBlock/data-updates.lua: Comment out lines 640, 641, 642; and also do what Fahrradkette said.