[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

[Trainwreck]

@Trainwreck
you can upgrade SCT to latest version, it also fixes issue with boblogistic inserter overhaul, if enabled.

Great, as it only effects players using non-default settings I won't bother releasing a new version of the pack just for this. It will be updated in the next release, whenever that is.

About the steel/tin yellow belt issue, producing tin requires researching and building a slag filtration setup. And probably also a few algae farms for power. I don't want to require players to build these without using any underground belts or splitters. Using steel for yellow belts allows splitters and underground belts to be built before bobmonium production is online.

[secondadvent]

You could also set it up to where there's a steel yellow belt recipe for the early belts as well as a tin version for a cheaper option later. Not sure how much you'd like to have alternative recipes for belts, but it's just a thought. Multiple ways of doing things are always nice.

[mexmer]

@Trainwreck
you can upgrade SCT to latest version, it also fixes issue with boblogistic inserter overhaul, if enabled.

Great, as it only effects players using non-default settings I won't bother releasing a new version of the pack just for this. It will be updated in the next release, whenever that is.

About the steel/tin yellow belt issue, producing tin requires researching and building a slag filtration setup. And probably also a few algae farms for power. I don't want to require players to build these without using any underground belts or splitters. Using steel for yellow belts allows splitters and underground belts to be built before bobmonium production is online.

guess that's more to bob that me

but my bases ususally don't use splitters/ug belts at start, so i had not problem yet with new belts from bob (except before angel fixed tin production lock behind red research, when it was not possible to get tin for belt, which was needed to make lab)

[fiery_salmon]

Also I would like to suggest to include some quality of live mods.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/keep-organized
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Squeak%20Through
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/beltplanner
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/autofill
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/even-distribution
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/HandyHands
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Bottleneck
As you are forced to build gigant arrays of stuff:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Bluebuild or https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Nanobots and https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Nanostart

If you want them just add them. Also, Squeak is not merely QOL - it removes one of game mechanics (what is perfectly OK if you want it, but calling it QOL is misleading)

[jodokus31]

Same with autofill.
And long reach, which is not mentioned here.

It makes combat against the worms so much easier. This time I decided to do it without long reach and autofill. And the fight against a packed group of medium worms is really hard, even with mk2 turrets.
Ok, by the time, you unlock sniper turrets, it switches to trivial and tedious again. At the moment, I try my luck with a tank, to make it a bit more interesting. For big islands, with many behemoth, it is a very close fight.

[fiery_salmon]

Is it normal that brown liquor (from paper processing II) is accepted but not consumed in clarifier? 1k sits inside machine, clarifier accepts nothing more and nothing happens (usually clarifier disappears liquids after reaching 1k).

[mrvn]

@Trainwreck
you can upgrade SCT to latest version, it also fixes issue with boblogistic inserter overhaul, if enabled.

Great, as it only effects players using non-default settings I won't bother releasing a new version of the pack just for this. It will be updated in the next release, whenever that is.

About the steel/tin yellow belt issue, producing tin requires researching and building a slag filtration setup. And probably also a few algae farms for power. I don't want to require players to build these without using any underground belts or splitters. Using steel for yellow belts allows splitters and underground belts to be built before bobmonium production is online.

So instead of researching tin I have to research steel and then build 8 extra electrolyzer + ore crusher + crystalizer setups to produce the steel?
Apart from them higher cost for steel is steal actually that much easier to research than tin?


As for not having UGs and splitters till way into the game Bob has already talked about adding an option for black UGs and splitters and decided to default it to on. So having yellow belts locked behind tin should be perfectly fine.

[fiery_salmon]

Is it normal that brown liquor (from paper processing II) is accepted but not consumed in clarifier? 1k sits inside machine, clarifier accepts nothing more and nothing happens (usually clarifier disappears liquids after reaching 1k).

It is not a SeaBlock bug - see viewtopic.php?f=185&t=25468&start=1800#p351903

Now I am curious why I am the first one to spot it - what people do with that brown liquor? They are not using Paper II? Or is it happening only on my computer for some reason?

[ukezi]

probably not, as the basic Sodium Hydroxide chain is stronger then the paper chains.

[fiery_salmon]

probably not, as the basic Sodium Hydroxide chain is stronger then the paper chains.

Also for making paper?

And similar question - direct melting of geodes rather than grinding to the dust is useful only if for some reason one have too much stone/mineralized water, right?

[live22morrow]

I have found FNEI to be not 100% reliable in seablock. I try to search through the research screen first to make sure the recipe is there, which it does show up for ferrous solution as the above poster said.

This was it, I have the research but the recipe does not show up for ferrous solution in FNEI even with hidden and disable recipes turned on. However, if I put down a leaching plant the recipe is available to be set on the machine, so it's FNEI that is wigging out somehow. Thanks.

Have also found this to be the case with Paper Bleaching 3. Doesn't show up in FNEI at all (for either the ingredients or the products), but it shows up in the selection for advanced chemical plant.
Helmod and "What's it really used for?" Shows those recipes as well.

[live22morrow]

probably not, as the basic Sodium Hydroxide chain is stronger then the paper chains.

Also for making paper?

And similar question - direct melting of geodes rather than grinding to the dust is useful only if for some reason one have too much stone/mineralized water, right?

Direct melting to slurry gives a better yield per washing cycle (a little over 50%). However it costs a huge amount of Sulfuric Acid. The energy cost of making the sulfuric acid is quite large, so making crystal dust is much better. I think direct melting is only worth it if you have a huge amount of sulfur or sulfuric acid lying around for whatever reason.

[Theaisa]

In the current version of the mod, how do you folks start out? You are super limited on both space and power, it definitely feels like it's gotten slower to get started.

Is it worth it to build more wind turbines ? Do you mass produce charcoal and burn it?

I'm leaning towards going straight for solar panels, but it still takes me something like 12 hours of play before I can start mass producing them.

Once I have solar panels, I put everything into getting self sufficient on solar and using steam power as primitive batteries.. but I can't help but think that there must be faster ways of getting started.

The two main ideas I have are
a) mass produce iron and focus everything on building more wind turbines. Use the new power to get more iron and ignore advanced tech for a while.
b) focus entirely on steam engines, get green science up and grab coal processing 2 for pellets, then boilers MK2 and steam engines MK2. This is actually more costly than solar panels (which is why I havent tried it), but it should be faster to 'mass produce'. Solar panels are very expensive early on!

Anyone have better ideas?

[Anhalter]

Since Solar Panels take a ton of Electronic Circuits i went the Boiler Way. First some Mk1, then to Mk2, then to Pellets, then to Solar Panels. I built a Handful of Wind Turbines, but would not do that a second time. Might be there is a better way though, i am now 50h in and had quite a few very slow phases where i had shortages on everything. Iron, Basic Circuits, Power, you name it. Now i reached strand casting and am about to automate Solar Panels, so there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

[hewhoispale]

In the current version of the mod, how do you folks start out? You are super limited on both space and power, it definitely feels like it's gotten slower to get started.

Is it worth it to build more wind turbines ? Do you mass produce charcoal and burn it?

I'm leaning towards going straight for solar panels, but it still takes me something like 12 hours of play before I can start mass producing them.

Once I have solar panels, I put everything into getting self sufficient on solar and using steam power as primitive batteries.. but I can't help but think that there must be faster ways of getting started.

The two main ideas I have are
a) mass produce iron and focus everything on building more wind turbines. Use the new power to get more iron and ignore advanced tech for a while.
b) focus entirely on steam engines, get green science up and grab coal processing 2 for pellets, then boilers MK2 and steam engines MK2. This is actually more costly than solar panels (which is why I havent tried it), but it should be faster to 'mass produce'. Solar panels are very expensive early on!

Anyone have better ideas?

The wind turbines needing steel rules them out as an early investment imo.
While the research chain to solar is shorter than better steam engines, steam engines take relatively little infrastructure investment to be self-maintaining (just an algae farm complex and fuel processing setup). While producing solar panels means you are having to get the entire circuit chain setup, which is a huge amount of machines and space, and then you need a million landfills for the space to put down the solar panels.

It feels like a reasonable route is starting turbines -> handful of boilers/engines -> 2nd tier boiler/engine/fuel -> solar panels/accumlulators

[jodokus31]

In the current version of the mod, how do you folks start out? You are super limited on both space and power, it definitely feels like it's gotten slower to get started.

Is it worth it to build more wind turbines ? Do you mass produce charcoal and burn it?

I'm leaning towards going straight for solar panels, but it still takes me something like 12 hours of play before I can start mass producing them.

Once I have solar panels, I put everything into getting self sufficient on solar and using steam power as primitive batteries.. but I can't help but think that there must be faster ways of getting started.

The two main ideas I have are
a) mass produce iron and focus everything on building more wind turbines. Use the new power to get more iron and ignore advanced tech for a while.
b) focus entirely on steam engines, get green science up and grab coal processing 2 for pellets, then boilers MK2 and steam engines MK2. This is actually more costly than solar panels (which is why I havent tried it), but it should be faster to 'mass produce'. Solar panels are very expensive early on!

Anyone have better ideas?

I think, the best is to focus on a solid wood pellet production and boilers/steam engine mk2. Can be powered with carbon at first, because charcoal pellets are way more tech. Also inserter capacity helps alot, because of so much algae and crushed stone to reduce inserter consumption.
I experienced a huge difference by the time, i switched to steam engines mk2. I made the mistake to use boiler mk2 with steam engine mk1, and it wasted energy (I dont know, if that has been changed in base game)
Im now on blue science with ~180 MW and I only changed to pellets and its still works great. Next I will upgrade to mk3 boilers and engines. No solar this time
EDIT: Also upgrading to mk2 Electrolyzers has a noticable impact.

[ukezi]

also nice: the change from all MK1+charcoal to everything MK2(+50% prod)+pellets lets you power about the same number of MK2 boilers.

[Theaisa]

The wind turbines needing steel rules them out as an early investment imo.
While the research chain to solar is shorter than better steam engines, steam engines take relatively little infrastructure investment to be self-maintaining (just an algae farm complex and fuel processing setup). While producing solar panels means you are having to get the entire circuit chain setup, which is a huge amount of machines and space, and then you need a million landfills for the space to put down the solar panels.

It feels like a reasonable route is starting turbines -> handful of boilers/engines -> 2nd tier boiler/engine/fuel -> solar panels/accumlulators

This was pretty much my thought process too, though having the electronics chain set up for the solar panels allows you to more easily build other important things (like fast / filter inserters). I'm not convinced solar panels take less landfill than steam turbines.. the infrastructure for algae farms takes up a lot of space as well. The main weakness of the solar panel approach (and the reason I bring this up) is that it's the only approach that requires you to wait for hours with little progress as you watch the research tick up (and then you need to wait for the panels to be produced!).

I think next time I am going to try the wind turbine approach.. while I agree the steel requirement makes them expensive, it also opens the door for early important tech advancement:
Advanced steel smelting at just 50 green science reduces the price from 26 iron to 18.
Advanced ore refining at another 50 green science allows you to turn 100 sludge into 4 iron for more efficient production.

A wind turbine doesn't give much power, but at a mere 4 copper and 18 iron, they are also incredibly cheap compared to the alternatives, at just 100 green science compared to 250 for solar power and 345 (!) for MK2 boiler/steam and pellets.
A solar panel in comparison costs 28 copper, 7 tin, 4 lead and 60 iron (44 with advanced steel smelting, which makes it a priority but you probably won't have it until later if you rush solar...).

From tests, it takes roughly 4 wind turbines to produce as much power as a solar panel (though wind turbines are much less predictable! can be much less or much more). That means solar panels and wind turbines are actually more or less equal on a cost:mw ratio (unless I am missing something?). I still prefer solar panels because they have a predictable power output (and you can use boilers and steam power as batteries during the night), but wind turbines allows you to ramp up production MUCH faster.


I really like that there are so many paths to get started, though. It's a great testament to how great this mod is They all seem more or less viable.

[mrvn]

probably not, as the basic Sodium Hydroxide chain is stronger then the paper chains.

Also for making paper?

And similar question - direct melting of geodes rather than grinding to the dust is useful only if for some reason one have too much stone/mineralized water, right?

Direct melting to slurry gives a better yield per washing cycle (a little over 50%). However it costs a huge amount of Sulfuric Acid. The energy cost of making the sulfuric acid is quite large, so making crystal dust is much better. I think direct melting is only worth it if you have a huge amount of sulfur or sulfuric acid lying around for whatever reason.

I don't remember that. Both ways need sulfuric acid and I remember it looking similar. It might need more sulfuric acid without crushing to dust but huge amounts? Can you show us your math there please?

Early on you are drowning in sulfur so doing some pure crystal melting might be a way to get rid of it if your math is right. Later on though the advanced smelting methods using pellets and anodes/cathodes needs sulfuric acid. Gives you a 33% gain in plate outputs if you can produce the sulfuric acid for it. Also blue algae needs sulfuric waste water with no way around that drain on sulfur.


Problem comes after, when you need mineralized water to filter it for the crsytalizers. Where do you get the mineralized water from for thst step? By crsuhing to dust you get a lot of that mineralized water. Previously I had it overproduce mineralized water but after recent updates I'm running into a serious lack of mineralized water. A stand alone factory to produce ores from mud water here needs an input of mineralized water (or some electrolyers + slag crushing) and outputs excess sulfur from the sulfurhydroxide of the mud washing.

And with SeaBlock any excess crushed stone can be turned into much needed landfill. I found the landfill production from mud seriously lacking even if grass looks so much nicer than all that desert. I'm thinking of using landfill from mud to line my stone walkways / roads with grass for aestetic purposes. Should be enough for that.

[live22morrow]

I've been doing some calculations to try and quantify the space efficiency of power production. The values I got are in kw per tile. The non-renewable methods only counted the building space and didn't account for inserters, belts, extra space, etc. As a result, the real values for those will probably be a good amount lower than what I listed.

wind 2.5kw
solar 4.66kw
solar 3 10.5kw
charcoal (level 1 machines) 5.83
charcoal pellets (max machines) 35kw
uranium (5x2 reactor) 540kw

I didn't account for power storage on solar, so if you're using it as the sole energy producer, the value will be a bit lower to make space for steam batteries (or much lower if you use accumulators). As I stated above, the values for charcoal and pellets are likely exaggerated. I also didn't calculate the solid fuel pathways for vegetable oil or hydrazine, though I suspect they would be better than the algae farms. And the uranium calculation is just there for fun. I doubt space will be much of a concern with a 1.4GW factory.