[MOD 0.17.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

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Helfima
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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Wed May 24, 2017 11:26 pm

I have add a new tab for properties of entity prototype, it's cool to check value for a entity prototype (it s must activate in option for mod)
propeties tab

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Nexela » Thu May 25, 2017 8:28 pm

Set angels ore slag-processing-1 then click computing by factory
helmod crash.png
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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by pieppiep » Sat May 27, 2017 8:28 am

Arch666Angel wrote:Is there anything you can do to make your mod be able to handle recursive recipes? I noticed that some of my smelting and other recipes are not really working well with helmod when they are "looping".
Do you want something to check your recipes so you can balance them or do you really want to calculate this in-game?

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Tue May 30, 2017 8:29 pm

Nexela wrote:Set angels ore slag-processing-1 then click computing by factory
resolved in 0.5.3 :lol:

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:38 pm

I have push new version 0.5.4

now we can add few same recipe in the production block
same recipe
now first line is not locked and we can put few output
multi output

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Yandere » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:38 pm

So, I've recently picked up helmod. I'm using it to calculate setups involving oil products. Putting in the production amounts of 0.17 and 0.4 as in the example in OP works just fine, until you insert a single module, at which point that value changes. How do you derive the production number in the first place, so that all heavy oil goes to producing light oil, and all light oil goes to producing petro, and the amount of advanced refining is calculated so that you produce exactly enough petro with no leftover byproducts?

Is there any way to start from an input instead of an output? Say, as an example, I have 100 crude oil/s. I want to know how many red chips I can make with that, and what other raw materials I'll need.

Is there a way to "compute by factory" for one of the recipes at the bottom and not the top (final) recipe? For example, I have 1 refinery going full time, how much crude oil does it consume, and how many red chips can I get out of with that fixed 1.00 refineries.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Gecko » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:05 am

Yandere wrote: Is there any way to start from an input instead of an output? Say, as an example, I have 100 crude/s. I want to know how many red chips I can make with that, and what other raw materials I'll need.
There is now way to do that right now. You have to balance your red chips production (or rather the plastics production) accordingly to your input of 100 crude/s. For plastics and adv. oil processing try 5.5 for plastics. This will bring you to 100 crude input. Afterwards you have to balance the heavy to light and light to gas accordingly (see 1st post of the thread).

Also you can only change the topmost recipe I tried it. With this information there might be a way for you to exploit this fact depending on what you want to calculate.

EDIT:
A good balancing i found for turning all crude to gas is
8 refinery
to 1x heavy -> light
to 8x light -> gas (you would actually only need 7 but there is some left overs to swoop up).
The input is roughly 160 crude/s
Picture
Last edited by Gecko on Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Gecko » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:26 am

This balancing thing always gets me....

Take a look at the picture, dear Helfima.



At blue (1) I tried to balance my lube production with what 8 refineries with adv. oil cracking. It's 48 heavy what i get. As lube to heavy is 1:1 i get 48 lube as output. Step 1 done!
At red (2) there are left overs from the production. Conveniently they can be turned into solid fuel. According to the ratio of products created from oil cracking light oil:gas (which is 3:2) I tried to balance the production of solid fuel in the chemical plants. But there is no effect on the input/output whatsoever! Step 2 failed!
Reason for failure:
At green (3) you can see the ratio is as it is from production 2:1! Not 3:2 And I didn't find any way changing it.

EDIT: As it was pointed out my ratios are off! The output of the refinery is 1 : 0.75 (or 4:3) for gas : light! Still, the question holds.

So my question here: How can I get only lube and solid fuel as an output and all light gets used up?
Helmod3.png
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Last edited by Gecko on Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by pieppiep » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:45 pm

It looks like a bug.
When you adjust the percentage for a recipe it only updates the products and ingredients when it's a recipe to produce ingredients for another recipe in the production line.

I found a little work around to calculate what you need.
- From the production line, add production block, then add recipe basic oil processing.
- Add another recipe for lubricant.
- Now adjust the lubricant output to 48.
- Than adjust light oil so that input/output heavy oil is 0. Easiest is to start at 1, than divide the needed heavy oil (48) by produced heavy oil (1), this gives 48 for light oil.
- Go back to production line. Remember the output 48 light oil.
- Add production block with just recipe light oil to solid fuel.
- Adjust output first to 1 solid fuel, than correct it for 48 light oil by deviding 48 by what we need right now, so 48/10 = 4.8 for solid fuel.
- Go back to production line. Remember the output 64 petroleum gas.
- Add production block with just recipe petroleum to solid fuel.
- Adjust output to 1 solid fuel. Devide 64 by 20 gives 3.2 so adjust again solid fuel to 3.2

Now the production line has 48 lubricant and 8 solid fuel output for 160 crude oil input.

Easier would be your way when the bug is fixed, than the ratios would be 3.2/8*100 = 40% for petroleum to solid fuel and 4.8/8*100 = 60% for light to solid.
But that would probably only work when you know the ratios.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Gecko » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:10 am

pieppiep wrote:It looks like a bug. [...]

I found a little work around to calculate what you need.
[...]
Thanks! Appreciate that!

Though, it seems unnecessary complicated. I was thinking about this approach not saying I tried it (couldn't be bothered). I guess it works best if you open up a new page for the production line. So nothing would interfere. I wonder how many pages you can have. I'm at 19 now.

Right now I'm at the stage of unifying and straightening my builds so they would be modular. Prior I was just building along the main bus whatever i needed. Helmod does the heavy lifting for me and I seem to uncover the things nobody noticed or bothered complaining about before. I had a spreadsheet before but it was all lose parts unconnected on several tabs of a EXCEL file. Helmod is really helpful for calculating ratios and putting everything in one spot.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:52 pm

@gecko: I introduced a bug with the multi product
I try to solve it tomorrow night, I work in the day or it will be Saturday

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:35 pm

@all: have updated my mod and added few options
Version 0.5.6
  • Fixed balancing error with multi product
    Added fluid selector for properties tab
    Added option default factory
    Added option for moving faster row
    Added option to hide the main button
    Added option to show/hide all sheet for admin
    Fixed power solar
    Fixed crash deleting first line of production block
    Updated english localisation files (by Arumba07)
@gecko: now it's ok
lubrifiant

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by CorBlimey » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:01 am

hello. At custom UI scale of 150% (laptop resolution is so high yet screen so small I have to scale it up to avoid eye strain :D) the menu top left clips at the top left of the window preventing proper use / closing it etc. Not sure if this is a mod bug or a bug with the facotorio menu engine

Edit: I can fix workaround it by changing the Helmod menu size in mod settings. So not really an issue except it would be ideal if the menu could ensure it snaps to top left or centred or something.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Gecko » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:13 pm

Helfima wrote:@gecko: now it's ok
Thanks a lot! I feel kind of guilty that you had to address me in person so I would recognize...


Well, here is my next problem. I already invested 2h (it was actual 2 hours, not figurative ones) to figure out the balancing of the problem pictured below. Technically I know where to start... but in all honesty, I gave up. I can't do it.
Anybody brave enough, I propose this as a challenge. Oh, and do me a favor, would you? Tell me the result. :)
On the right hand side in the picture right below, you can see the solution I propose but I can't proof in Helmod. The ratios should be kind of right, though... At least from what I tested.
Solve the puzzle
I tried all of this in different combinations, also separate recipes in one production module:
  • Put line 4 and 5 to 0. -> the gas would not go below 100..[/*']
  • Put line 5 to 0 and play with line 4 -> can't get gas output below 100..[/*']
  • Put line 4 to 0 -> changing the percentage of line 5 does not change anything at all. It stays at 0 all the time...[/*']
gas never goes below 100
line 5 does not change if l4 is 0

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:17 pm

tutorial en francais: https://youtu.be/zrdLD2QOA0w

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by TheBearKing » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:09 pm

Hi Helfima,

Thanks for the mod, I really like it. I have two feature requests though: I am a big fan of perfect ratio's for production lines, i.e. number of factories for each (sub-)product such that each factory is running 100% of the time at full capacity and every product is utilized. Would it be possible to implement this in your mod? Then for example if you want to make white circuits (bob's mods) you press a button for perfect ratio's and it shows the number of assembling machines/smelters you need for each product. Currently, if you would want this information you have to guess how much white circuits a perfect build produces which is practically not feasible.

I know that the perfect ratio's can sometimes be a bit absurd if the production numbers between the assembling machines do not really match nicely, so in these situations a near-perfect practical ratio would also be perfectly fine. This would for example be very nice for finding good builds for bob's power mod, where there are multiple levels of steam engines and boiler, and to find perfect pump:boiler:engine ratio's for each combination.


As a smaller, second feature request: is it possible to have your mod show the percentage/fraction which is used of the last assembling machine. For example, if you go to factorio.rotol.me and set up any build it will show you that you need 2.87(3) assembling machines of a given product to achieve the desired production, where the (3) indicates the rounded number of required assembling machines. Now, your mod wil show you that you need 3 assembling machines regardless whether you actually need 2.1 or 2.99 assembling machines. This would help to show whether or not you have (a lot of) overproduction somewhere along the build.

I am happy to hear your opinion on these ideas.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:03 pm

@TheBearKing
I am not sure that the search for the perfect ratio on the plants is really useful because in this case the previous plant will produce of the surplus not consumed

Otherwise there is a display option in the Mod menu to see the comma
Mod Options

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Wexler » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:42 pm

Loving the mod, have been using it extensively with bobs+angels, and not had any issues except this one.

http://i.imgur.com/2EPFrfS.jpg

For purified Jivolite sorting, Helmod is saying the Floatation Cell stage generates 900 Fluoric Waste Water per second, and that the Leaching Plant stage requires 90 Hydrofluoric Acid per second. This would be a perfect ratio for processing the waste water. 900 waste water = 90 acid.

However, this wasn't working, it kept running out of acid, and checking the numbers myself, it looks like the Leaching plants need 180, not 90, acid per second.

Is this a bug in Helmod, in Angels mods, or am i doing something wrong?

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by TheBearKing » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:04 pm

Helfima wrote:@TheBearKing
I am not sure that the search for the perfect ratio on the plants is really useful because in this case the previous plant will produce of the surplus not consumed
I am not sure what you mean by this. Sure it is true that raw materials might not all be consumed, e.g. iron/copper plates, but that is not really a problem. In the sense that most likely these resources will be on your main bus and you just strip off the raw resources you need. But internally in the build you are ensured that there are no shortages/surpluses. If for example you would build basic electronic boards in bob's mods, you need tin wire, basic circuit boards, basic electronic components etc, for each of these factories you would like that every part that is produces is also consumed with only the final product as leftovers, in this case basic electronic boards. The reason why you would want this is to make sure that the assembling machines will always work and if they are not then there is most likely a problem with the raw resource input.

I have encountered in some of my multiplayer games with friends that people will just start building assembling machines to produce the parts that are necessary and then hope that production is good. However I have found that then in the course of the game you revisit that design 10 times because for some reason the factories have stopped because something is off balance. Sure if you know how much you want to produce then you can use Helmod to calculate the necessary factories to produce that amount. However what if you just want to produce more than you are doing currently? Again you can double the production in Helmod and extend the current build with the necessary assembling machines, but my preference would be to build another copy of the perfect ratio build of which you are ensured that internally everything is exactly balanced. I have found that doing it this way, 1) makes troubleshooting much easier, 2) if you need to increase your production you know that adding one factory won't help, so you can easily decide to build another copy of the build and 3) it prevents headaches from cascading problems where you add one extra factory of the final product, then for a couple of the subproducts you need to add another factory, but then this suddenly doesn't fit in the space you have reserved and then the result is total spaghetti. Instead, as noted in point 2, you just replicate the build and you are ensured of no waste or shortages.

At least this is how I feel and again i am very open to hear how other people handle this situations, and to hear your opinion on this:)
Helfima wrote: Otherwise there is a display option in the Mod menu to see the comma
Mod Options
Cool, I didn't know this. I will test it out.

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Re: [MOD 0.15.x]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

Post by Helfima » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:42 pm

@TheBearKing:
The images are not recent but the principle is the same
I calculate all the necessary production by decomposing well my blocks, to split a block in sub block use "max per block" field in recipe edit
http://imgur.com/a/86QG5
and after I build my sub-block by respecting the ratio of the calculation (pin button add the pinned panel with value for a sub-block)
http://imgur.com/a/dafID

bonus: my game product 1000 sience pack per minute
http://imgur.com/a/B2Khs

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