[MOD 0.17.x] Modular Armor Revamp

[Ranakastrasz]

Working on it, but it turns out, its a bit more complex than the other lesser mods. Apperently a ton of stuff got renamed, and a bunch of functions got changed, so it will probably be a few more days. Gonna fix pre-fusion first tho, so you will have that at least.

[Peter34]

Working on it, but it turns out, its a bit more complex than the other lesser mods. Apperently a ton of stuff got renamed, and a bunch of functions got changed, so it will probably be a few more days. Gonna fix pre-fusion first tho, so you will have that at least.

Oh, I just now realized that PreFusion was for the vanilla game. For some reason I was under the impression that it was for Bob's mods only.

I hope you will get ReVamp updated to 0.13 in a week or so, so I can start playing (because by that time 0.13.3 and 0.13.4 will probably have come out, alowing for a more polished and more bug-free experience), but two things:

1. I like the idea of some kind of teleporter, but the way this module does it, based around constructed fixed-location teleporters, sounds cool:
viewtopic.php?f=93&t=13886
Would be nice if you could implement it in your ReVamp mod, based on a combination of armor modules and fixed-location teleports. However, it's really only of interest if it works in MP.

2. Have you considered introducing two armour suit branches? One branch that's cheaper to make and perhaps has more slots (e.g. 8x9 instead of 8x8, 11x10 instead of 10x10, 16x16 instead of 15x15)) but which has much lower damage resists (and therefore not really functioning as armour), and then the current line of armours? The first kind, the new kind, could be non-combat armours, meant for construction work inside the base, and so would mostly be used for Roboports and Exos, while the 2nd kind would remain as they are now, being power armour meant for combat use, but with both branches able to fit all modules?

[Ranakastrasz]

Oh, I just now realized that PreFusion was for the vanilla game. For some reason I was under the impression that it was for Bob's mods only.

Now, It's just compatable. I just wanted viable solar power in bobs mod, so I threw a crippled version together. Precision since that was the name of the original solar equipment buff mod.

I hope you will get ReVamp updated to 0.13 in a week or so, so I can start playing (because by that time 0.13.3 and 0.13.4 will probably have come out, alowing for a more polished and more bug-free experience), but two things:

Most likely will happen. Trying to update my lesser mods first tho.

1. I like the idea of some kind of teleporter, but the way this module does it, based around constructed fixed-location teleporters, sounds cool:
viewtopic.php?f=93&t=13886
Would be nice if you could implement it in your ReVamp mod, based on a combination of armor modules and fixed-location teleports. However, it's really only of interest if it works in MP.

It was going to be more like, add module to armor.use item to teleport to target point. Limited range, mainly to jump over walls, pipes, trees, train tracts, etc. Less power efficient than legs but instant.

2. Have you considered introducing two armour suit branches? One branch that's cheaper to make and perhaps has more slots (e.g. 8x9 instead of 8x8, 11x10 instead of 10x10, 16x16 instead of 15x15)) but which has much lower damage resists (and therefore not really functioning as armour), and then the current line of armours? The first kind, the new kind, could be non-combat armours, meant for construction work inside the base, and so would mostly be used for Roboports and Exos, while the 2nd kind would remain as they are now, being power armour meant for combat use, but with both branches able to fit all modules?

Interesting idea. Before, the extra shields you could fit would make that purely better, but since armor effects shields now, maybe.

[Peter34]

Oh, I just now realized that PreFusion was for the vanilla game. For some reason I was under the impression that it was for Bob's mods only.

Now, It's just compatable. I just wanted viable solar power in bobs mod, so I threw a crippled version together. Precision since that was the name of the original solar equipment buff mod.

I hope you will get ReVamp updated to 0.13 in a week or so, so I can start playing (because by that time 0.13.3 and 0.13.4 will probably have come out, alowing for a more polished and more bug-free experience), but two things:

Most likely will happen. Trying to update my lesser mods first tho.

1. I like the idea of some kind of teleporter, but the way this module does it, based around constructed fixed-location teleporters, sounds cool:
viewtopic.php?f=93&t=13886
Would be nice if you could implement it in your ReVamp mod, based on a combination of armor modules and fixed-location teleports. However, it's really only of interest if it works in MP.

It was going to be more like, add module to armor.use item to teleport to target point. Limited range, mainly to jump over walls, pipes, trees, train tracts, etc. Less power efficient than legs but instant.

2. Have you considered introducing two armour suit branches? One branch that's cheaper to make and perhaps has more slots (e.g. 8x9 instead of 8x8, 11x10 instead of 10x10, 16x16 instead of 15x15)) but which has much lower damage resists (and therefore not really functioning as armour), and then the current line of armours? The first kind, the new kind, could be non-combat armours, meant for construction work inside the base, and so would mostly be used for Roboports and Exos, while the 2nd kind would remain as they are now, being power armour meant for combat use, but with both branches able to fit all modules?

Interesting idea. Before, the extra shields you could fit would make that purely better, but since armor effects shields now, maybe.

1. I was the one who provided the idea for the Pre-Fusion or Prefusion mod for alpha 0.11. Matthew, a teenager from the UK, made it, but because of school work he never got around to updating it to 0.12, so I was very glad when I saw your mod.

2. Sensible priority.

3. Well, that's not really interesting to me, but on the other hand, from a game design (or mod design) perspective it's always good to have more options for what modulees to put into one's armour. Alpha 0.11 was very, very, very samey because you had so few kinds of modules. Power generation, Energy storage, Shields, Exoskeleton. 0.12 added the Robport as the main one. Your mod adds more power options, better energy storage, and makes the Personal Laser Defence viable. This widens the range of genuine choices that the player can make. If you add the Jump-Teleporter you're thinking about, that'll widen the range even further, so even though it doesn't really appeal to me it's still a very good idea.

4. I hadn't actually thought of that (oops), beyond some very vague speculation that maybe you'd be able to give the armour types modifiers to affect mods, so that Shield mods (and possible Resist-boosting mods) are more efficient in combat armours and less efficient in builder suits, while Roboports (in particular) could be more efficient in builder sits.

[Ranakastrasz]

1. I was the one who provided the idea for the Pre-Fusion or Prefusion mod for alpha 0.11. Matthew, a teenager from the UK, made it, but because of school work he never got around to updating it to 0.12, so I was very glad when I saw your mod.

huh, really? I only thought you had wanted that mod updated. Didn't know you suggested it.

2. Sensible priority.

Also my friend is going to be out of touch soon, so we are prioritizing playing over my modding.

3. Well, that's not really interesting to me, but on the other hand, from a game design (or mod design) perspective it's always good to have more options for what modulees to put into one's armour. Alpha 0.11 was very, very, very samey because you had so few kinds of modules. Power generation, Energy storage, Shields, Exoskeleton. 0.12 added the Robport as the main one. Your mod adds more power options, better energy storage, and makes the Personal Laser Defence viable. This widens the range of genuine choices that the player can make. If you add the Jump-Teleporter you're thinking about, that'll widen the range even further, so even though it doesn't really appeal to me it's still a very good idea.

Hmm. The idea is to be able to just jump over stuff, similar to what squeak-through lets you do. That and let you jump walls, fenses, water, or even use combat blink. Kinda a utility varient of movement, instead of just more speed.

4. I hadn't actually thought of that (oops), beyond some very vague speculation that maybe you'd be able to give the armour types modifiers to affect mods, so that Shield mods (and possible Resist-boosting mods) are more efficient in combat armours and less efficient in builder suits, while Roboports (in particular) could be more efficient in builder sits.

Unfortunately, without excessive programming abuse, that kind of thing isn't feasible, as far as I know.

Actually, why do you want bigger armor? Isn't 225 slots enough? Do you REALLY need more than 15x15? You can fit 9 fusion reactors in it. 9!

[Formal Rice Farmer]

i really only use this mod for the amazing module slot that lets you charge your armor batteries when standing in your power grid

[Ranakastrasz]

Almost done. Still need to recheck names to make sure I didn't miss any, fix localization, add migration for name change, and figure out the wires power bar issue. Probably be ready today or tomorrow.

Edit:

Oh goodie. Turns out a typo in the patch log made me miss that all power values got increased 10x. Luckily, I have a constant that handles most of that, but I have to fix base energy values to 10x normal value, and make sure my batteries don't need buffed now as well.

Edit:

And as it turns out, Fusion reactors don't play nice with overwrites.. Irritating.

[Ranakastrasz]

V0.2.0
Release for 0.13.0

Mk3 and Mk4 power armor now resist fire, slightly better than vanilla mk2 does.
Batteries are more powerful, to at least partially match vanilla.


The T2 vanilla battery is actually better in power per tile, but I didn't want to mess around with trying to get values right, so I just multiplied all battery values by 5 and left it as is. T1 battery was as powerful as vanilla T1 battery, but half the size, at 5x power, it would be 5x as powerful, or 10x via size. Vanilla is now ahead by 2x in that respect, but I don't think I need to follow that.

The Mk4 Battery's capacity is 150 vs the vanilla's 100, but is 4x as large, so is obviously inferior. Again, I don't feel like fixing that right now, and am unsure if it is even nesseary. As is, the capacity is large enough IMO.


Since vanilla increased modular armor power values by a factor of 10, I cut my factor from 100x to 10x, to keep values the same.... One more patch to go, and I can stop using that equivilence thinggy. I bet using roboports in vanilla is less annoying now.

Fusion reactor was not behaving. Actually, none of the generators were. If you hovered over it, instead of a blank electricity bar, it was a full one, which went all the way from the left of the screen to the right. I suspect a divide by zero error somewhere. Anyhow, I tried changing them to batteries, which I wanted to do for a while for various reasons, but for some reason, Fusion reactor refuses to cooperate. Hence I had to give it power generation. Ofc, 96w is far less than enough to power literally anything, so it is pretty much ignorable. The others hold 1 second worth of power, which also gives a bit of a UI display type thing. Not ideal yet, but till I get a solution, good enough.


Reverted the Advanced Exoskeleton equipment (The basic Exoskeleton equipment in vanilla) back to vanilla naming, and made the basic Actuator just Actuator equipment. Seems more reasonable. The Basic energy shield is now the electrostatic shield, (in code now properly, not just in localization)

This update might have issues, I am horrid at migration scripts, and they tend to explode in my face. I tested, but I cannot be certain I did it correctly. Save before updating please.

I think thats everything....

Have fun!

[Ranakastrasz]

V2.1
Added Inventory Size Bonus to Mk3 and Mk4 Armor.



Because I somehow forgot. Honestly that was pretty impressive.

[Peter34]

Thanks for updating this mod! Now all the mods I consider "core" are 0.13-ready, so I've started to plan a grand MP game starting perhaps 17 days from now.

I do hope you'll also get around to updating your Larger Chests mod. That still has some interesting use cases.

I've thought some more about your plans for adding a module for very short-range teleportation to "jump over" blocking structures, and I do actually think it might be valuable to have in coop MP games where the other players might not understand the importance of 100% adherence to a doctrine that says to avoid large blocking structures (such as a row of 10 Steam Engines with no UnderPipe gap in between). Instead of having to convince the problem player that it is important to never do that, one can just jump over the problem, so to speak.

I am somewhat keen on long-range teleportation, and this mod might be good, but as it's module-based I suspect it would interact strangely with your mod:
viewtopic.php?f=93&t=24157

[Ranakastrasz]

Doubt it would have any unexpected behavior. Script only seriously runs for the generator-type objects thus far. Only thing that might go wrong is if the object uses internal power, and doesn't refer to, say, it's maximum energy capacity. In that case, the energy cost would be 10% of normal. Or 1%, if they didn't update for vanilla's 10x modification



Trying to get bobs mod to work. Did some coding to allow multiple levels of generators and conduits. Spent some time writing out approximate stats. I am kinda intimidated by a few things at the moment however. For one thing, vanilla battery size threw absolutely everything off. bobs mod just scaled it up 10x as normal for everything, except for the mk1 and mk2, which are the 20x, and 25x (or 0.5x, depending on where you count from), and ends up with some rediculous amounts of energy capacity. As in, a fusion reactor Mk4 takes 10 minutes to charge a Mk6 battery type numbers..... Its rather excessive. It kinda threw my mod off as well, even if the growth wasn't nearly as extreme. Bobs mod follows a wierd quadratic equation making it double plus some per level, wheras I pretty much added 25% each level. Approximately. Numbers still got really large however.

As for the other issues. I think I would need to make a second addon mod to interface the two. But I am not really sure how I might go about doing that, or making sure I can register the equipment's stats for the main mod's script code to manage. Its a lot of stuff I haven't actually tried before, so I am really not sure how to really even start.

[Ranakastrasz]

From mod portal

This post isn't meant as negative feedback.

I became aware from very early on that Rana cares deeply about game balance, and that he has been trying to improve on the game, rather than cheese out. And he has done a very good job, as my below analysis will in fact show:

The whole basis for this analytical method is density-per-tile, analyzing power generation (/transfer) seperately from energy storage.

Solar panel t1: 250 kW/tile (conditional: sunlight - no player control)
Solar panel t2: 300 kW/tile (conditional: sunlight - no player control)
Burner Generator: 250 kW/tile (conditional: fuel - is under player control)
Conduit: 600 kW/tile (conditional: must be near Pole grid/in base)
Reactor: 600 kW/tile (conditional: must have fuel - is a bit hard to craft, but ultimately is under player control)

Furthermore, Solar Panel t2 and the Reactor are fairly large modules, making them non-trivial to fit into the grids of smaller (lower tier) Armors, but they're also late- or later-game modules, so by that time the player will most likely have larger Armors.

("True" average Solar efficiency is 70%, based on how long full daylight lasts, vs dusk and dawn and full night, and so the "real" power densities are 175 kW/tile and 210 kW/tile for the Solar Panel modules, so one must weigh the downside of the hassle of having to re-fuel vs just being able to keep playing without a care as recharge is automatic, albeit conditional on external cyclically recurring factors.)

My verdict: Yup. Game balance is present.

Battery t1: 100 MJ/tile
Battery t2: 125 MJ/tile (25% better)
Battery t3: 150 MJ/tile (20% better than previous tier)
Battery t4: 187 MJ/tile (25% better than previous tier)

Again, this is very good. Giving a 25% or 20% boost in storage efficiency per tier is a good scaling. Armour tile space is at a premium, and it is nice to be able to store more energy, and most players will be willing to pay the high cost for that privilege.

This post is about energy and power density, but I have to say that I also like the other aspects of this mod.

Removing the need for blue circuits in the tier 1 Modular Armor, and removing the need for Electric Engines in the tier 1 Exoskeletons, is super nice, as that makes them available in an earlier game progression phase than they'd otherwise be.

Likewise having the higher-tier Armors with 12x12 and 15x15 grids is good, because it's very nice to have some expensive high-end gear to sink resources into.

I do personally think that Solar Panel t2 might warrant a slight boost from 300 kW/tile to 320 or 325 (so the magnitude of disagreement between me and Rana is less than 9%), and that Conduit should perhaps be nerfed to 550 or even 525 kW/t (so that here we disagree by less than 15%), or that there should be an early game conduit at 450 kW/tile and a late-game one ("super-conducting conduit") at 750 or 800 kW/tile (the current Conduit is fairly early game) and being a huge bastard occupying 3x3 or 5x3 tiles or something like that (the current Conduit at 1x1 tile is super flexible when it comes to slotting it into the module grid). And I think maybe the highest tier Power Armor, t4, costs a bit too few Alien Artifacts (total cost 230, vs 50 for the t3 one. I think perhaps 350 or 400 would be more appropriate. But even here I disagree with the modder by something like 63%, not a factor of 4 or 5).

The mod is, however, perfectly playable as is, and is a vast improvement over the vanilla game. Thanks for making it, and for keeping it updated!

Would prefer this kind of feedback in the main thread. Seriously. I only saw this because of a misclick.

Aside from the batteries, all of the values are in the long description.

Buffing the t2 solar much more brings it's average up to match the burner. However, given the reliability, That might be fine.

I am considering splitting the conduit. Arch666angel gave me a 4x4 model for it, so any square size up to 4x4 should work.

Mk4 costs around 1.1k Artifacts.
Each tier is, very roughly, 5x as expensive, interestingly enough.

Mk4 total costs are
136k Patrolium,
4.3k Sulfuric Acid (Presumably for excessive numbers of blue circuits
1.8k Lubricant (Electric Engines I imagine)
295k Iron
518k Copper
45k Coal
1.1k Artifacts.

So it isn't cheap. At all.

Actually, I think you got T3 and T4 mistaken for T2 and T3
----------

Making progress on bob mod integration.
Got fusion to work now. Fusion, solar, shield, and battery are partly implemented, as equipment only. Recipe, tech, and items are not started yet

Still need to scale/make art for conduit and engine.

Conduit would be 1 wide and 1/2/3/4 tall per tier. Engine would be 2x2,2x3,3x3 and 3x4.

Not sure if or how to scale legs. Might leave them along. Same with laser.

[DRT99]

First off, love the mod. Figured i'd leave some feedback.

Im just curious what role you see the personal laser defense filling - when i played with it in 0.12 after you made research affect it, while it didnt exactly feel terrible, it felt like it was lacking slightly.

The biggest issue i have with it is that its both power hungry and short range. It has less range than spitters meaning to use it youre going to be taking damage (meaning extra power drain from shields), and it's power needs are so massive that, combined with the shield and exo power needs, lead to issues. Short of using ridiculous amounts of alien fuel, i found the best way to use it was with carrying power poles and using conduits - at which point i may as well have been using turrets and personal roboports.

While i really like the changes you have made to it, i still dont see a reason to use it over regular lasers and roboports - especially once behemoths show up, and its damage really starts to drop off

[Ranakastrasz]

Honestly? I have no idea. Even in vanilla I don't see the point. Best use I've seen was marking targets in trees. And giving a tank some point defense. I buffed it and added tech, but I still don't see any reason to use it normally.

[Ranakastrasz]

base-mod-wise. Got the register interface, so other mods could register equipment for this one.

Also, Buffed the T2 Solar to 325. At 350, it would match Burner generator in average, which I kind want to avoid.
Splitting conduit into a 1x1 and 3x3 one. 400 and 800 per tile, respectively. Should work as an end-game-like generator.

[Peter34]

base-mod-wise. Got the register interface, so other mods could register equipment for this one.

Also, Buffed the T2 Solar to 325. At 350, it would match Burner generator in average, which I kind want to avoid.
Splitting conduit into a 1x1 and 3x3 one. 400 and 800 per tile, respectively. Should work as an end-game-like generator.

Thanks, sounds very nice. I agree that 350 kW/til would be too much, 325 is fine, and I look forward to the rebalanced Conduits.

But when are you going to release this version of the mod?

[Ranakastrasz]

Once my houses internet is back up, probably.
Edit:
Actually, only once I get a solution to my current Problem. Currently, it is impossible to have multiple conduit types (or multiple types of anything, technically) and that was one of the things I was doing in the bobs Integration. However, due to the difficulties of having two mods communicate, its kinda on hold for now.

[doggie015]

You need two modular armors to make a power armor, but the modular armor stack size is 1 meaning that it is impossible to make the base power armor within an assembler - minor issue.

[Ranakastrasz]

You need two modular armors to make a power armor, but the modular armor stack size is 1 meaning that it is impossible to make the base power armor within an assembler - minor issue.

Considering I have no idea what would happen if you stack two modular armor when one has modules, that might be for the best.

I wonder what happens if I set it to use 1 module armor, and 1 modular armor, as two seperate entires. If you set something to use 0 of an item, it requires one to be present, but doesn't use it... So maybe.

Considering that no crafting mods exist, this is kinda a problem.

The bigger issue is that vanilla assemblers cannot handle the number of components...

[DRT99]

I recall some of the 0.13 changes allowed making equipment that increases character attributes like crafting speed or pickup range, do you have any plans to do something like that?