Too much tech between starting ores and automated wood production

[sparr]

This is less of a problem in the base game because circuits and logistics stuff do not require wood. However, in an Angles+Bobs game, it seems like there's a significant gap in tech and production between when you need automated wood (after coal + stone + iron + copper) and when you can get automated wood (after clay production and arboretum tech, or after silicon smelting and greenhouse tech). It feels like you're forced to jumpstart one of those two production paths, and all the requisite tech, without much opportunity to do anything in between or along the way.

Am I missing something? Does anyone NOT do it this way, and instead somehow make use of lead or tin or fluids before automating wood production?

[darkfrei]

Am I missing something? Does anyone NOT do it this way, and instead somehow make use of lead or tin or fluids before automating wood production?

Fossil Roots?

[BlueTemplar]

You can smelt glass directly from silicon, in stone furnaces (or even hand-smelt it if you're using the Miner character).

[sparr]

You can smelt glass directly from silicon, in stone furnaces.

Yes, but you can't get silicon without ore sorting(?), and ore sorting is later in the tech tree than lead and tin.

[BlueTemplar]

Technically yes, but both Mechanical Refining and Greenhouse techs are very cheap (20 and 10 red science IIRC?)

[sparr]

Smelting lead and tin doesn't require any science at all.

Automating lead and tin smelting only requires science that you already have if you've automated iron and copper smelting.

Requiring two (for greenhouses) or more (for arboretums) techs, and learning the associated new buildings, to get from that point to automating wood is out of keeping with the general tech progression of the game.

Unless there's some obvious bit of progression in between those two things that I am not seeing. At the point where I've automated iron, copper, stone, and coal, it really feels like automated wood is what I need next.

[MageKing17]

I really don't feel like researching ore sorting for silicon is a huge distraction; in fact, I always feel like I get greenhouses too easily, and have been debating whether or not I should disable Bob's Greenhouses for my next run.

[sparr]

If you disable them then the same objections hold for the arboretum path.

Or are you talking about pure bob's, where you need to get oil running before you can automate wood production? That seems masochistic; you'll still be collecting trees by hand an hour or two into the game :/

[BlueTemplar]

Uh, no, you need Steel and T2 circuits for Arboretums... therefore tin and lead (unless that changed in 0.17?)

Or do you mean that the issue is that you need to automate wood if you want to automate T1 circuits already ?
Then yeah, that is a big gap for arboretums - it's normal in Factorio (early game at least), to have a first "manual" step before you can automate things, but the gap for arboretums is certainly too big !

But then, that's why there are Greenhouses... but then the issue was always that they're too good compared to the other, more advanced Angel ways of automating wood ! (Any balance mods nerfing them without removing them?)
(And also there's the Paper to Circuit Boards path...)

[Termak]

You dont need any kind of greenhouses unless you started on totally barren area. Also using bobgreenhouses makes resin cost 5times normal materials and time.
Getting wood from oil comes rather early and is supersimple, sadly for resin you need a bit of higher tier metals for catalysts.

[BlueTemplar]

In my game, I decided to have all bob's mods installed, but boycott bobwood, bobresin and bobsolder altogether.
(And set RSO to remove starting oil, and looks like I won't be able to get any any time soon...)

[mrvn]

What about the algae route? Going the paper route? Isn't that an early option?

[BlueTemplar]

No, (in 0.16) it's worse (IIRC) than arboretums, requires more research, and doesn't even give you real wood !
I guess that it's supposed to be a fallback if you don't find any angeltrees ?
(Then, I have no idea how it compares with farming either...)

[mrvn]

No, (in 0.16) it's worse (IIRC) than arboretums, requires more research, and doesn't even give you real wood !
I guess that it's supposed to be a fallback if you don't find any angeltrees ?
(Then, I have no idea how it compares with farming either...)

But you don't want wood. You want circuit boards. And for that the wooden boards from paper do work. It's certainly much slower than arboretums but you only need the paper route till you researched arboretums. When I played without greenhouses I used that.

[sparr]

But you don't want wood. You want circuit boards.

Are circuit boards the only early game thing in pure-Angels that needs a lot of wood? I guess I can start a parallel thread over in the Bob's Mods forum about requiring wood for logistics stuff.

[MageKing17]

But you don't want wood. You want circuit boards.

Are circuit boards the only early game thing in pure-Angels that needs a lot of wood? I guess I can start a parallel thread over in the Bob's Mods forum about requiring wood for logistics stuff.

Wait, by "pure-Angels" do you mean "Angels without Bobs"? Because then circuits wouldn't require wood at all.

[BlueTemplar]

But you don't want wood. You want circuit boards. And for that the wooden boards from paper do work. It's certainly much slower than arboretums but you only need the paper route till you researched arboretums. When I played without greenhouses I used that.

Again, (in 0.16 at least) the paper route requires more research than arboretums - so why wouldn't you go straight for arboretums in the first place ?

[mrvn]

But you don't want wood. You want circuit boards. And for that the wooden boards from paper do work. It's certainly much slower than arboretums but you only need the paper route till you researched arboretums. When I played without greenhouses I used that.

Again, (in 0.16 at least) the paper route requires more research than arboretums - so why wouldn't you go straight for arboretums in the first place ?

Huh? Maybe you are thinking of something else.

When you first start one of the first techs you need is to make a basic circuit board using brown algae -> alginic acid + cellulose fiber through paper to a board. That's the part I'm talking about. It's even before automation-science-packs.

[BlueTemplar]

No, I'm not - I did the math : see my above link (and scroll down to the "to resume" part).

[mrvn]

No, I'm not - I did the math : see my above link (and scroll down to the "to resume" part).

You did the math. But not for the most basic recipe to make wooden boards. It's a requirement to research red science so it can never ever be more expensive than something requiring red science.

It's slow and all but it enables automation of wooden boards, basic circuit boards and circuit boards. And that allows automating the everything for red and green science.