Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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evandy
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

Santa - I think you mentioned this a bit back, but could you reiterate your rationale for replacing Tin with Silicon in Tier 1 Cupric sorting? I've been making a lot of use of the original Tier 1 Cupric, as there is so much call for Tinned wire, which the original setup worked well for. Personally I'd save the Silicon to add at Tier 2 (to support Tier 2 Circuits), and keep the Tier 1 still Copper & Tin. This probably goes along with the general redo of Cupric and Ferrous (per above long conversation), but I'm interested in your thinking process here. Circuits certainly goes through a lot of Silicon, but it goes through a lot of Tinned wire too. I love getting them both out, but losing the Tin just makes me sad right this moment.

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Re: Development and Discussion

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evandy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:29 am
Santa - I think you mentioned this a bit back, but could you reiterate your rationale for replacing Tin with Silicon in Tier 1 Cupric sorting? I've been making a lot of use of the original Tier 1 Cupric, as there is so much call for Tinned wire, which the original setup worked well for. Personally I'd save the Silicon to add at Tier 2 (to support Tier 2 Circuits), and keep the Tier 1 still Copper & Tin. This probably goes along with the general redo of Cupric and Ferrous (per above long conversation), but I'm interested in your thinking process here. Circuits certainly goes through a lot of Silicon, but it goes through a lot of Tinned wire too. I love getting them both out, but losing the Tin just makes me sad right this moment.
Maybe it's just a bug.
On the github repo, I find this :
extended ores
4 crushed cupric => 2 copper, 2 tin
6 cupric powder => 3 copper, 2 tin, 1 silicon
8 cupric dust => 4 copper, 2 tin, 1 silicon, 1 silver
9 cupric crystal => 4 copper, 2 tin, 1 silicon, 1 silver, 1 gold
It's on the project page. https://github.com/Arch666Angel/mods/projects/10
Just a guess, I don't know if this is the right document to look at.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by LordRasko »

Xeorm wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:55 pm
1. Two bugs sprang to notice pretty quickly. Picking up some buildings deconstructed them to their components. And in order to make red science you apparently need solder, which needs red science to make. Both annoying, both I'm guessing will be fixed.
Yeah have same Problem, now i cant do anything to get more tech and so

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

evandy wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:14 am
I was thinking that giving fusion catalyst from only Plutonium cells would be nice (and therefore require that they be made and used). But Bob didn't leave the breadcrumbs for that.

Personally, I feel like once you "have" a fusion catalyst you have proven that you have the infrastructure to make it, and that taking it away from the player is a bad feel. I don't mind keeping Thorium around as a breeder reactor to make more Fusion catalyst, I just don't really dig losing the ones you have. If you want to keep Thorium in the loop long-term, then maybe something like:

Used up Uranium (or Plutonium) x5 - 0% fusion Catalyst
Used up Thorium (or thorium-plutonium) x5 - 5-10% to get a fusion Catalyst
Used up Deuterium x5 - 5 catalyst (for sure) + 0% chance to get an extra

I don't really see the point of restricting it though; I still think that you should just get the extra catalyst from Deuterium. You don't actually need to use the Thorium cells for power (you can run them in a standalone disconnected reactor and waste the heat), so even with a net-negative loop like you suggest I don't think you're really requiring that much more complexity at run-time. Your call (along with your fellow devs) not mine, of course, but that's my thought and reasoning behind it.
I like the idea that you require plutonium to get the fusion catalyst. Then I would make plutonium harder to get as well...
  1. Uranium stage
    • Uranium fuel cell from uranium 235 + 238
    • Main source of uranium-235 would be kovarex enrichment process (convert uranium 238 into 235)
    • Uranium fuel reprocessing gives:
      • 10% uranium 235 every 5 fuel cells ==> (20%/10 cells; net loss of 80% uranium-235)
      • 20% plutonium every 5 fuel cells ==> (40%/10 cells)
  2. Uranium-plutonium stage (initial fusion catalyst generation)
    • Plutonium fuel cell from uranium 238 + plutonium;
    • Plutonium fuel reprocessing gives:
      • 10% uranium 235 every 5 fuel cells ==> (20%/10 cells)
      • 20% plutonium every 5 fuel cells ==> (40%/10 cells; net loss of 60% plutonium)
      • 2.5-7.5% (avg 5%) of a fusion catalyst (20*60%=12 plutonium/fusion catalyst)
  3. Thorium stage
    • Thorium fuel cell from uranium 235 + thorium (replacing uranium 238 with thorium from the uranium stage)
    • Main source of plutonium would be bobs enrichment process (convert thorium into plutonium)
    • Uranium fuel reprocessing gives:
      • 0.5-1.5 (avg 1) uranium 235 every 5 fuel cells ==> (2/10 cells; net gain of 1 uranium-235)
      • 40% plutonium every 5 fuel cells ==> (80%/10 cells: doubling of what uranium stage gave)
  4. Thorium-plutonium stage (improved fusion catalyst generation)
    • Thorium-plutonium fuel cell from thorium + plutonium;
    • Thorium-plutonium fuel reprocessing gives:
      • 0.5-1.5 (avg 1) uranium 235 every 5 fuel cells ==> (2/10 cells; net gain of 2 uranium-235)
      • 10% plutonium every 5 fuel cells ==> (20%/10 cells; net loss of 80% plutonium)
      • 7.5-12.5% (avg 10%) of a fusion catalyst (10*80%=8 plutonium/fusion catalyst)
  5. Deuterium stage (consumption fusion catalyst)
    • Deuterium fuel cell from fusion catalyst and deuterium (maybe 1 plutonium as well?)
    • Deuterium fuel reprocessing gives back the catalyst 100% of the time
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

evandy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:29 am
Santa - I think you mentioned this a bit back, but could you reiterate your rationale for replacing Tin with Silicon in Tier 1 Cupric sorting? I've been making a lot of use of the original Tier 1 Cupric, as there is so much call for Tinned wire, which the original setup worked well for. Personally I'd save the Silicon to add at Tier 2 (to support Tier 2 Circuits), and keep the Tier 1 still Copper & Tin. This probably goes along with the general redo of Cupric and Ferrous (per above long conversation), but I'm interested in your thinking process here. Circuits certainly goes through a lot of Silicon, but it goes through a lot of Tinned wire too. I love getting them both out, but losing the Tin just makes me sad right this moment.
Ok, so cupric sorting is most likely for the circuits, probably all the bulk ingredients, so that would be copper and tin (wire), then adding silicon (wafer) in the powder sorting, adding gold (wire) in the dust sorting and finaly the only option (except from mixed sorting) the platinum (wire).
That will decrease the amount of silicon you'll get, but will add tin to it as well. Silver however will be completely gone.
yzorr wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:26 pm
evandy wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:38 pm
yzorr wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:28 pm

Can nickel ore also be used in iron plate production? Ratios are up to you; this could just be a minor aid to iron production, not a manganese replacement. I know that iron+nickel=invar; can we just say if iron can do it, invar can do it, at least in factorio-ab-world, and so even though it's invar we're calling it iron? (https://www.nickel-alloys.net/invar_nic ... alloy.html)

Right now, if you produce nickel ore pre-chem, then like glass there are one or two parlor tricks that you can perform with that nickel ore around invar. After that, if you persist in producing nickel, then the best move is putting that nickel ore into a warehouse and shooting the warehouse. The use for nickel comes way down the road. That's unique.
Nickel and cobalt together can be used to extend iron and steel iirc.
Yeah, but that solves a sorting problem with floating, which is an unusual and problematic direction. A better direction would be eliminating nickel production with direct catalyst sorting. Neither of these directions mitigate the best placement of nickel being inside a destroyed warehouse.

If nickel is going to be a result of sorting, I think it deserves better.
I do agree that the nickel is a bit too much early game (crushed rubyte -> lead + nickel). I do want to replace rubyte sorting to not give nickel, but something else instead. My initial thought was to give manganese there, to compensate for the steel, since that iron+manganese smelting is unlocked fairly early as well. Another idea was to give aluminium first, and nickel after, but I'm not sure you'll use the aluminium either... What do you think would be the best option of these two? (Or maybe another option?)

I do however feel like it fits well with the ferrous chain, together with the cobalt, but since it unlocks 1 extra ore with power and 1 extra with dust sorting, I cannot unlock cobalt + nickel at the same time. Where I feel nickel being an earlier ore than cobalt.
LordRasko wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:39 pm
Xeorm wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:55 pm
1. Two bugs sprang to notice pretty quickly. Picking up some buildings deconstructed them to their components. And in order to make red science you apparently need solder, which needs red science to make. Both annoying, both I'm guessing will be fixed.
Yeah have same Problem, now i cant do anything to get more tech and so
It would be an option (that would be disabled by default) that the buildings return components instead of the building itself). And yes, the rework on refining/smelting did break that technology again, there should be an early game manual crafting recipe available...
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

lovely_santa wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:09 pm

I like the idea that you require plutonium to get the fusion catalyst. Then I would make plutonium harder to get as well...
if you can introduce a used up plutonium cell then I am totally on board with this. The only comment I have, and I can’t believe I am joining the real world brigade, is that you shouldn’t require plutonium in a fusion fuel cell. The catalyst is enough.

EDIT: If you want to make Plutonium cell more interesting, suggest that you replace the Lead with Platinum plates. Nice to have another use of the metal, and it makes Deuterium firmly different from the Fission cells.
Last edited by evandy on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

lovely_santa wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:34 pm

Ok, so cupric sorting is most likely for the circuits, probably all the bulk ingredients, so that would be copper and tin (wire), then adding silicon (wafer) in the powder sorting, adding gold (wire) in the dust sorting and finaly the only option (except from mixed sorting) the platinum (wire).
That will decrease the amount of silicon you'll get, but will add tin to it as well. Silver however will be completely gone.
yzorr wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:26 pm
.

If nickel is going to be a result of sorting, I think it deserves better.
I do agree that the nickel is a bit too much early game (crushed rubyte -> lead + nickel). I do want to replace rubyte sorting to not give nickel, but something else instead. My initial thought was to give manganese there, to compensate for the steel, since that iron+manganese smelting is unlocked fairly early as well. Another idea was to give aluminium first, and nickel after, but I'm not sure you'll use the aluminium either... What do you think would be the best option of these two? (Or maybe another option?)

I do however feel like it fits well with the ferrous chain, together with the cobalt, but since it unlocks 1 extra ore with power and 1 extra with dust sorting, I cannot unlock cobalt + nickel at the same time. Where I feel nickel being an earlier ore than cobalt.
i love the cupric plans, can’t wait. Won’t miss the silver, and the silicon is a good addition. In fact, any idea when this will be ready? I might just wait to move my seablock base into 0.18 until the cupric revisions are in place. No need to wait until you nail down ferrous to get this out and in peoples hands.... and it goes right along with the fix to the ore sorting you just released. does this mean that advanced processing boards will require platinum to produce? That sounds like a good idea to compliment this change. maybe move the gold down to the third tier circuits?

Nickel is still needed for brass, but I really like the idea of replacing it with manganese from rubyite. Getting manganese easy and early would be great. I might suggest changing the prerequisites for iron smelting 2 and steel smelting 2 in order to get the recipe much earlier. Or maybe move the manganese recipes to the level 1 techs. That would really be great in the early game, and it makes no sense to give manganese that you can’t use yet.

Regarding the iron smelting ... I think that needs deeper work as well. There is little incentive to use the chrome recipe as the output (360 molten) is identical to the nickel and cobalt output. And we have nickel and cobalt out the ears. I think you need to make some fixes there, which will lead into a better ferrous progression naturally. Just off the cuff:
Iron —> 120 molten
Iron, manganese —> 240 molten
Iron, manganese, nickel —> 360 molten
Iron, manganese, nickel, chrome —> 480 molten
Steel—> 120 molten
Steel, manganese —> 240 molten
Steel, manganese, cobalt —> 360 molten
Steel, manganese, cobalt, chrome —> 480 molten

Play around with it as you like, but my thought is to not swap to completely different extenders at the higher smelting tiers. Even if you don’t like this idea, I really think there should be a peak x480 smelting recipe that requires chrome. That would be the payoff for ferrous processing.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

evandy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:29 am
Santa - I think you mentioned this a bit back, but could you reiterate your rationale for replacing Tin with Silicon in Tier 1 Cupric sorting? I've been making a lot of use of the original Tier 1 Cupric, as there is so much call for Tinned wire, which the original setup worked well for. Personally I'd save the Silicon to add at Tier 2 (to support Tier 2 Circuits), and keep the Tier 1 still Copper & Tin. This probably goes along with the general redo of Cupric and Ferrous (per above long conversation), but I'm interested in your thinking process here. Circuits certainly goes through a lot of Silicon, but it goes through a lot of Tinned wire too. I love getting them both out, but losing the Tin just makes me sad right this moment.
While I was also advocating tin, I now see benefits of having silicon. Tin is easy to direct sort with brown catalyst and raw ores, while silicon need hydro refining and green catalyst - both are slow and require more steps. And silicon in the only 2nd tier ore that is needed for science packs. So new recipe fits quite well in my base.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

For the rubyite ore sorting... while I really love the manganese instead of nickel, don’t you need brass to make the flotation cells for Level 3 refining? If so, then you will need to make the nickel available elsewhere at tier 2.

Maybe make jivolite give nickel instead of copper? You would probably have to change crotinium too. So maybe something like

Sapphirite —> 2Fe 1Cu
Stiritite —> 2Cu 1Fe
Jivolite —> 2Fe 1Ni
Crotinnium —> 2Cu 1??
Rubyite —> 2Pb 1Mn
Bobmonium —> 2Sn 1Si

Maybe put the SI on crotinnium and aluminum on bobmonium?

But then that gives tier three access early, and screws up the higher tier sorting too. Such a simple change, but so many side effects. Going to need to chart out the whole ore process. Is there another metal we could add to balance things out? Should we look at adding platinum or chrome to purified to help balance? Let me know if you are interested in my banging together a complete redo to fit the Mn into rubyite, don’t want to bother you if you aren’t interested in bigger changes.

EDIT: I was wrong, Brass is necessary for Lv2 Floatation, but Lv1 does NOT require it, so simply losing the Nickel is okay. Can just replace Ni with Mn in the Rubyite recipe and this should be ok.
Last edited by evandy on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

lovely_santa wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:34 pm

Ok, so cupric sorting is most likely for the circuits, probably all the bulk ingredients, so that would be copper and tin (wire), then adding silicon (wafer) in the powder sorting, adding gold (wire) in the dust sorting and finally the only option (except from mixed sorting) the platinum (wire).
That will decrease the amount of silicon you'll get, but will add tin to it as well. Silver however will be completely gone.
This is viable proposal but it depends on if silver or platinum will be used in circuits which are used for science pack production. In A&B play neither of them is used, while tin, silicon and gold are used.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

danyax wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:22 pm

While I was also advocating tin, I now see benefits of having silicon. Tin is easy to direct sort with brown catalyst and raw ores, while silicon need hydro refining and green catalyst - both are slow and require more steps. And silicon in the only 2nd tier ore that is needed for science packs. So new recipe fits quite well in my base.
Adding the silicon is great, I just am not in favor of removing the tin. I think Santa’s plan above to bring back tin and replace the silver at tier 2 cupric with Silicon sounds just right to me.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

lovely_santa wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:34 pm
I do agree that the nickel is a bit too much early game (crushed rubyte -> lead + nickel). I do want to replace rubyte sorting to not give nickel, but something else instead. My initial thought was to give manganese there, to compensate for the steel, since that iron+manganese smelting is unlocked fairly early as well. Another idea was to give aluminium first, and nickel after, but I'm not sure you'll use the aluminium either... What do you think would be the best option of these two? (Or maybe another option?)

I do however feel like it fits well with the ferrous chain, together with the cobalt, but since it unlocks 1 extra ore with power and 1 extra with dust sorting, I cannot unlock cobalt + nickel at the same time. Where I feel nickel being an earlier ore than cobalt.
Aluminium is bad option - it is used for science packs only after blue one and is useless for building without zinc.

If you add iron + nickel or iron + nickel + manganese recipe for molten iron on green tech it would solve the problem of nickel abundance. Recipes with nickel + cobalt does not solve the problem because cobalt is much harder to get and higher on tech progression.

Or you can add iron + nickel -> steel. A worse option as it will be available only on blue science
Last edited by danyax on Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

danyax wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:30 pm
lovely_santa wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:34 pm

Ok, so cupric sorting is most likely for the circuits, probably all the bulk ingredients, so that would be copper and tin (wire), then adding silicon (wafer) in the powder sorting, adding gold (wire) in the dust sorting and finally the only option (except from mixed sorting) the platinum (wire).
That will decrease the amount of silicon you'll get, but will add tin to it as well. Silver however will be completely gone.
This is viable proposal but it depends on if silver or platinum will be used in circuits which are used for science pack production. In A&B play neither of them is used, while tin, silicon and gold are used.
Yup, Move gold down to tier 3 circuit boards, add platinum for tier 4 circuits (at least in bob angel) ...

I am not familiar enough with angel only to recommend what to do there.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

Wild idea... would purified cupric (just copper ore) and purified Ferrous (just iron ore) be interesting to consider?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

evandy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:35 pm
danyax wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:30 pm
lovely_santa wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:34 pm

Ok, so cupric sorting is most likely for the circuits, probably all the bulk ingredients, so that would be copper and tin (wire), then adding silicon (wafer) in the powder sorting, adding gold (wire) in the dust sorting and finally the only option (except from mixed sorting) the platinum (wire).
That will decrease the amount of silicon you'll get, but will add tin to it as well. Silver however will be completely gone.
This is viable proposal but it depends on if silver or platinum will be used in circuits which are used for science pack production. In A&B play neither of them is used, while tin, silicon and gold are used.
Yup, Move gold down to tier 3 circuit boards, add platinum for tier 4 circuits (at least in bob angel) ...

I am not familiar enough with angel only to recommend what to do there.
Level 3 circuits already adds silicon, ferrous solution and plastics(!). I would argue adding gold would be overkill in term of complexity.

But adding platinum for lvl 5 circuits is way to go!

I would also consider adding silver for lvl 4 circuits. It would form a nice progression of wires - copper (lvl 1), tin (lvl 2 and 3), gold and silver (lvl 4) and platinum (lvl 5).

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

danyax wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:51 pm
evandy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:35 pm

Yup, Move gold down to tier 3 circuit boards, add platinum for tier 4 circuits (at least in bob angel) ...

I am not familiar enough with angel only to recommend what to do there.
Level 3 circuits already adds silicon, ferrous solution and plastics(!). I would argue adding gold would be overkill in term of complexity.

But adding platinum for lvl 5 circuits is way to go!

I would also consider adding silver for lvl 4 circuits. It would form a nice progression of wires - copper (lvl 1), tin (lvl 2 and 3), gold and silver (lvl 4) and platinum (lvl 5).
I think we are using different numbers from each other, but are meaning the same things...

Lv 0 basic circuit boards
Lv 1 basic electronics boards
Lv 2 electronic circuit boards (white)
Lv 3 electronic logic boards (green)
Lv 4 advanced processing boards (blue)
Lv 5 there is no Lv 5


I don’t see the point of adding silver, personally, but right now the only new material for level 3 (per my level above) is sulphuric acid, iirc. Put the gold there and platinum at the top.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

evandy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:01 pm

I think we are using different numbers from each other, but are meaning the same things...

Lv 0 basic circuit boards
Lv 1 basic electronics boards
Lv 2 electronic circuit boards (white)
Lv 3 electronic logic boards (green)
Lv 4 advanced processing boards (blue)
Lv 5 there is no Lv 5


I don’t see the point of adding silver, personally, but right now the only new material for level 3 (per my level above) is sulphuric acid, iirc. Put the gold there and platinum at the top.
Lvl 3 (your numbering) adds also gold, not just sulfuric acid. And fiber board that require glass.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

danyax wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:04 pm
evandy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:01 pm

I think we are using different numbers from each other, but are meaning the same things...

Lv 0 basic circuit boards
Lv 1 basic electronics boards
Lv 2 electronic circuit boards (white)
Lv 3 electronic logic boards (green)
Lv 4 advanced processing boards (blue)
Lv 5 there is no Lv 5


I don’t see the point of adding silver, personally, but right now the only new material for level 3 (per my level above) is sulphuric acid, iirc. Put the gold there and platinum at the top.
Lvl 3 (your numbering) adds also gold, not just sulfuric acid. And fiber board that require glass.
Hmm, I will have to go check my recipes then. I thought gold was only required at lv 4. If so, then it should be fine as is, just add platinum at the top tier.

EDIT: You are of course correct. I had forgotten that Gold Plate was needed for the base boards, and was only remembering the Guilded Wire that is in the advanced processing boards.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

Have liquid robots been released? I see then on github, but can find on mod portal or in game. Cool idea, would like to try them

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

danyax wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:23 pm
Have liquid robots been released? I see then on github, but can find on mod portal or in game. Cool idea, would like to try them
No because the logic for them is not implemented. There are some complications. Its not functional at this point.
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