Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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Zephyrinius
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zephyrinius »

Warrie wrote:
Zephyrinius wrote:Ferrous sorting is by far the most efficient way to make steel, since manganese converts to steel at 1:1 whereas iron is 4:1.
Correct me if im wrong but isnt the same true for silicon? if you break it down you can create 4 silicon ore out of 4 crushed ores. while with mangese you get 2 mangese and 2 iron ores from 4 crushed wich is worse, steel wise.
Still the nickel/cobalt/iron recipe seems most efficient crushed ore>steel wise.
You're right that the nickel/cobalt/iron recipe is even better than manganese. Have you noticed that ferrous sorting also gives you nickel and cobalt?

Regarding silicon: you can't make steel purely from silicon -- you need some iron anyway. And if you're getting your silicon from combined sorting, it costs 4 ores + a catalyst, which is equivalent to 4.5 crushed ores to get 4 silicon ore. The same goes for producing nickel and cobalt from mixed sorting -- you need catalysts. I'm not saying that you should only use ferrous sorting, but it is more efficient as long as you can use all the products.
Warrie wrote:
Zephyrinius wrote:currently prod modules are allowed in casting machines but not in strand casting machines.
But prod modules are now enabled for assembling machines in sheet coil>plate wich makes the strand casting route ~twice as productive as the casting one.
Ahi, I didn't know that. Thanks!

morfledouille
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by morfledouille »

Arch666Angel wrote:Image
The model on the right is probably gonna get scrapped, not happy with it :P
Image

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This looks amazing! That science overhaul really looks like a game changer.

On a separate note, does anyone else feel like the number of different plates/alloys could gain to be reduced? I know it's more of a Bob dependency, but some of the plates, like bronze, are barely used anywhere, and the casting chain doesn't change from alloy to alloy.

Just my 2 cents. Absolutely love your mods Angel! Good luck with your next plans!

Mobius1
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Mobius1 »

Hey there,
I'd like to start with a great thank you for spending your time creating such a huge modpack, Factorio would be godamm boring without your mods, they're amazing.
I'd like to drop some ideas here if you don't mind, maybe something becomes interesting and can be salvaged from my madness!
Arch666Angel wrote:So some updates and some talking/writing about plans:

First off thanks for all the support over the time I'm developing my mods, it's been almost two years now that I'm in on this project, what were little baby steps at first has grown into these huge mess of mods. When I started off the idea was to enhance what I liked about bobs and stuff holes where I thought bobs creation was lacking, but since then it has grown into more and the goal to get my mods as stand alone overhaul is getting closer: one reason why I never wanted to be dependent completely on bobs. Refining, Petrochem and Smelting are more or less up to speed and where they should be, in most of them you can glimpse things I have planned for later use, e.g. certain metals, intermediate products, rocks etc. So the main focus at the moment is on Bio-processing bringing it where I want it and adding all the ideas I have for it.
The next step then is Angels Industries (yeah I know very inventive), it will be the successor to components, tech and logistics. At the moment I'm thinking that merging these mods are the best way going forward, but as always that might change if I run into a hurdle and discover that it is easier to handle in another way.
I think that the modular approach would be easier for mod maintenance and development as if you wanna add something new to your mods you just add another module on the mod portal instead of editting all your other mods if they were packed together to fix depedencies. You could add hardcoded depedency on all your mods on mod portal, so when we download any of your mods, it'll also download the depedencies.
Arch666Angel wrote:Bio Processing
Plans
-adding biter hatching and butchering
-adding crystal production chains
Ideas
-fishing
-more garden variety
-...?
I think the gardening is a great idea but somehow weird to factorio universe. They could be ingredients for research packs if you mix them on a bioextractor machine which would grind all the seeds to extract oil, that oil would be mixed with some catalysts and that would be made into science pack by another machine when combined with glass. That would make gardening to have more sense, also the plants are too far away, while I don't mind that, the garden generation could be adjusted by a game setting on the mod menu.
Fishing and fauna interaction could be interesting, again, if they're used for science pack crafting. While biters could be used for high tech science.
Arch666Angel wrote: -Science overhaul: introducing 6 tiers to research (grey, red, green, orange, blue, yellow) and specializations to techs (logistic, war, processing, energy, enhancement, exploration) so each tech will have a science-pack (tool to analyze data) determing tier and a datacore determing specialization.
Science overhaul seems interesting, but another interesting stuff, if possible, would be making a central lab building (one that would actually do the research), super expensive and expandable with research improvements such as speed, productivity, efficiency, being infinite researchs so when you're going up your production, your labs can work along. It should be possible to add a hardcoded limitation to 1 super lab per player, as you wouldn't need another one or it could break the game. That lab would belong to another force and its science status would be transferred to player's team, just like the approach used by the mod Robot Mining Site that makes the robots from the miner to belong to another force, they do the mining and then return the results to the team that is the builder of the machine, that way you could add some coloured labs that would pre-analyse the research packs and send the data to the main core lab which then would progress through the research. Since I don't think that researchs that needs more than one pack can be done by multiple labs that are limited to have only 1 science pack, that approach could do the job. That would be my idea for a trully "Overhaul" on science :D
Arch666Angel wrote: -Components: Adding component system to all placeable stuff, so if you build an assembler you need building blocks, if you place and then disassemble the machine you get the blocks back, so you are more flexible in what you produce and carry around, produce blocks in assemblers because of long crafting time, assemble buildings from blocks on spot.
Agreed, can be done?
Arch666Angel wrote: -Building materials, different tiers, different materials. I will probably stray from the realistic "inspiration" to make it more streamlined with what I have in mind.
-Logistics: Has everything you already know and more: New Extender poles, new roboport and some other stuff planned.
Sounds interesting, more weaponry and vehicles that could be linked with AAI would make it a great death world RTS game!!

Keep up the good work mah boi, and Danke for them modz

Warrie
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Warrie »

Zephyrinius wrote:
Warrie wrote:
Zephyrinius wrote:Ferrous sorting is by far the most efficient way to make steel, since manganese converts to steel at 1:1 whereas iron is 4:1.
Correct me if im wrong but isnt the same true for silicon? if you break it down you can create 4 silicon ore out of 4 crushed ores. while with mangese you get 2 mangese and 2 iron ores from 4 crushed wich is worse, steel wise.
Still the nickel/cobalt/iron recipe seems most efficient crushed ore>steel wise.
You're right that the nickel/cobalt/iron recipe is even better than manganese. Have you noticed that ferrous sorting also gives you nickel and cobalt?

Regarding silicon: you can't make steel purely from silicon -- you need some iron anyway. And if you're getting your silicon from combined sorting, it costs 4 ores + a catalyst, which is equivalent to 4.5 crushed ores to get 4 silicon ore. The same goes for producing nickel and cobalt from mixed sorting -- you need catalysts. I'm not saying that you should only use ferrous sorting, but it is more efficient as long as you can use all the products.
What i meant was that silicon is a better substitute for mangese to get steel. At best you get 3.75 steel for 5 crushed ores with ferrous (3 iron+3steel substitute ores). With silicon its 4 steel substitutes for 4 crushed ores.
catalysts are pretty much 'free', you can electrolyze dirt water or wash geodes if you lack sludge/seedling. Except for a lack and refusal to look for bobmonium i dont see why anyone would go ferrous sorting, its not free/extra like in 0.15 you can spend your crushed ores better.
Anyway ferrous sorting doesnt allow prod modules as it is so that kills it completely.

Btw there are 2 sets of chemical plants now. bobs and angels. Angel ones are very cheap (maybe thats why they look like crap, no offense)
i prefer bobs more. they are way more expensive, if bob continues with his OP modules we simply have to make stuff more expensive, especially late game.

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jodokus31
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by jodokus31 »

Warrie wrote: Btw there are 2 sets of chemical plants now. bobs and angels. Angel ones are very cheap (maybe thats why they look like crap, no offense)
i prefer bobs more. they are way more expensive, if bob continues with his OP modules we simply have to make stuff more expensive, especially late game.
I really like the fact, that angel has his own chem plants now, which are similar to the other angels buildings (ingredients, look).
And, different topic, I also like, that we have a underflow valve now :)

Regarding ferrous sorting. I think, it is great for early iron. (especially seablock, where mineral catalysts are expensive). I also like the challenge to only produce machines, which are craftable in current available assembly machines (aside from some must have buildings). And the tier 2 sorter, which is needed for catalyst sorting, needs 5 ingredients and i have only assembly machine 2. (aiming for a lazy-bastard-ish playstyle).

@Angel: Great plans and graphics, as always

Zyrconia
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

So how are things right now? Is it safe to upgrade to latest Angel's and Bob's for a new 0.15 map?

Thanks!

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mexmer
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

Zyrconia wrote:So how are things right now? Is it safe to upgrade to latest Angel's and Bob's for a new 0.15 map?

Thanks!
i don't think they do updates for 0.15 anymore.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

mexmer wrote:
Zyrconia wrote:So how are things right now? Is it safe to upgrade to latest Angel's and Bob's for a new 0.15 map?

Thanks!
i don't think they do updates for 0.15 anymore.
Well 0.16 is completely unplayable for me until they fix belt compression. This is 100% subjective, but for me, they completely ruined the game. Haven't' played since 0.16 came out an I miss it every day...

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steinio
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by steinio »

Totally unplayable. I can confirm this as I play it currently /sarcasm
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Zyrconia
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

steinio wrote:Totally unplayable. I can confirm this as I play it currently /sarcasm
The solution for the belt compression problem are all IMHO stupid, non symmetrical or just a silly formality/busy work.

Not to mention that most builds are broken.

If we get a confirmation that this situation will remain, I'll adapt. Until then, I booted up 0.15 again.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by knightofrust »

jodokus31 wrote:
Warrie wrote: we have a underflow valve now
How does it work? Pass fluid until it drops to 20% volume?
Also, would desert trees be used for producing oil later? Or maybe latex/rubber?

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steinio
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by steinio »

knightofrust wrote:
jodokus31 wrote:
Warrie wrote: we have a underflow valve now
How does it work? Pass fluid until it drops to 20% volume?
Also, would desert trees be used for producing oil later? Or maybe latex/rubber?
Pass fluid only if fill level of forwardpipe is under 80%
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Shielder »

Arch666Angel wrote:Image
The model on the right is probably gonna get scrapped, not happy with it :P
Image

Image
When will it be released?

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jodokus31
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by jodokus31 »

steinio wrote:
knightofrust wrote:
jodokus31 wrote:
Warrie wrote: we have a underflow valve now
How does it work? Pass fluid until it drops to 20% volume?
Also, would desert trees be used for producing oil later? Or maybe latex/rubber?
Pass fluid only if fill level of forwardpipe is under 80%
Yes, it helps to prioritize: the input, which is not flowing through this valve is consumed first. Could also be done with a pump and check-valve with circuit-condition: pump is enabled if fluid in check-valve is < 800 (1000 is full).
but its much more convenient and takes less space with this item.

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steinio
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by steinio »

jodokus31 wrote:
steinio wrote:
knightofrust wrote:
jodokus31 wrote:
Warrie wrote: we have a underflow valve now
How does it work? Pass fluid until it drops to 20% volume?
Also, would desert trees be used for producing oil later? Or maybe latex/rubber?
Pass fluid only if fill level of forwardpipe is under 80%
Yes, it helps to prioritize: the input, which is not flowing through this valve is consumed first. Could also be done with a pump and check-valve with circuit-condition: pump is enabled if fluid in check-valve is < 800 (1000 is full).
but its much more convenient and takes less space with this item.
In vanilla you would need a tank After the pump to measure fill Level. So this is just the luxury of Angel's life After all this ore refining.
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Zyrconia
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

Has anybody experimented with a liquid metal bus?

Instead of lines over lines of iron, a pressure tank kept full by trains and on the spot generating of plates from the liquid metal? It is a bit silly considering the physics of it, but otherwise might work.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by crysanja »

No experimentation needed. The casting of plates is too slow.
However cutting plates from sheets would be an option.
I would recomment to bus iron gears too.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Zyrconia »

crysanja wrote:No experimentation needed. The casting of plates is too slow.
However cutting plates from sheets would be an option.
I would recomment to bus iron gears too.
I do not understand your argument about casting machines being too slow. The speed is constant in both setups and you would use the same amount of casting machines.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

Zephyrinius wrote:
Warrie wrote:
Zephyrinius wrote:Ferrous sorting is by far the most efficient way to make steel, since manganese converts to steel at 1:1 whereas iron is 4:1.
Correct me if im wrong but isnt the same true for silicon? if you break it down you can create 4 silicon ore out of 4 crushed ores. while with mangese you get 2 mangese and 2 iron ores from 4 crushed wich is worse, steel wise.
Still the nickel/cobalt/iron recipe seems most efficient crushed ore>steel wise.
You're right that the nickel/cobalt/iron recipe is even better than manganese. Have you noticed that ferrous sorting also gives you nickel and cobalt?
After reading this I went and added ferrous ore crushing, sorting and iron/manganese mixed smelting. It's just so nice to make iron/steel plates with no waste products.

But then I researched "Advanced Iron Smelting 2" which gives you processed iron. This is something that only needs red and green science packs. Processed iron is 50% more efficient. Problem is that "Advanced Manganese Smelting 2" requires blue science. So it is a lot harder to get. And you are stuck with an unbalanced production again. Now I have a mountain of manganese left. :(

Shouldn't all the processed XYZ stuff require the same set of science packs? Why is processing manganese so much harder?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by jodokus31 »

mrvn wrote:
After reading this I went and added ferrous ore crushing, sorting and iron/manganese mixed smelting. It's just so nice to make iron/steel plates with no waste products.

But then I researched "Advanced Iron Smelting 2" which gives you processed iron. This is something that only needs red and green science packs. Processed iron is 50% more efficient. Problem is that "Advanced Manganese Smelting 2" requires blue science. So it is a lot harder to get. And you are stuck with an unbalanced production again. Now I have a mountain of manganese left. :(

Shouldn't all the processed XYZ stuff require the same set of science packs? Why is processing manganese so much harder?
I got the same problem. On the other hand, you also need an additional source for iron ore, because steel needs it too, and manganese doesn't help, because its also blue science (?). I hooked up an additional saphirite/stiratite (additional copper is needed, too) sorting with slag, and feed the slag back to the crystalizers with priority splitter or simply landfill

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