Development and Discussion

[steinio]

Found it under basic chemistry, but needed to reset the research to obtain it.
Another recipe for the migration file.

It's nice to see another alternative to getting precious slag.

Does anybody oberve Angel's changes to collect them to a migration file?

[marginoferror]

Thanks for your hard work. I'm really enjoying the extra nuance around mining and smelting, and petrochem is dizzying (in a good way).

I have some comments about fuel balance. Right now, because you get 2 carbon for each 1 coke + a trivial amount of carbon dioxide, the coke -> carbon converstion is a > 2x multiplier on the fuel value of coke. I think this makes carbon too good as fuel. Coke pellets are surely irrelevant because carbon is so cheap.

On the other hand, Petrochem solid fuel recipes require 3 coke (!) in addition to whatever you're putting into the fuel. Even just at the nominal fuel value of coke this is a mediocre deal, but if you consider the opportunity cost -- you could have turned it into carbon -- it's a negative deal even if the non-coke ingredients are null.

And on Bob's mutated third hand, there are alternative solid fuel recipes under Bob's Revamp's "solid fuel research" that sideline all the Angel's recipes by creating solid fuel for modest amounts of oil, with no coke. Whether the Petrochem recipes are too expensive or not, they're irrelevant as long as these recipes exist.

I'm still thinking about what needs to be done to bring the Angel's and the Bob's options in line. So far my ideas are:

1) Carbon should be nerfed, perhaps by reducing the fuel value from 6MJ to 4MJ, or even 3MJ.
2) Petrochem solid fuel recipes should be improved by either reducing the coke requirement to 1 (liquid fuel would have about 2MJ/unit whereas currently it is < 1MJ/unit) or removing the coke requirement and increasing the main ingredient requirements somewhat.
3) Regardless of where the values end up, Petrochem should replace, modify or merge with Bob's "solid fuel research" if Bob's is active, so that there is no discrepancy in fuel cost; or, they should fill different niches (for instance, Petrochem has slightly better recipes with the added cost of coke, and Bob's has slightly worse recipes with no coke).

What do you all think?

I'm using Angel's + Bob's + Marathon (with some homespun tweaks to bring Marathon costs and values to Angel's), but I've looked at the raw values to try and remove Marathon from this discussion since it's not officially supported w/ Angel's.

[steinio]

Guys what do u think about this materials?
1) Beryllium
2) Gallium
3) Vanadium
Where we can use them?

We use beryllium in spark free tools in our hydrogen storage as sparks could causes fire and explosions.
Maybe we can get some new nice tools for mining or repair packs?

Vanadium is often used to make steel more durable but also as cover of radioactive rods and airplane engines.

Gallium is often used in dioden and solar cells.
Minor use cases are heat exchangers of nuclear reactors and thermometers.

Greetings steinio

[aklesey1]

Guys what do u think about this materials?
1) Beryllium
2) Gallium
3) Vanadium
Where we can use them?

We use beryllium in spark free tools in our hydrogen storage as sparks could causes fire and explosions.
Maybe we can get some new nice tools for mining or repair packs?

Vanadium is often used to make steel more durable but also as cover of radioactive rods and airplane engines.

Gallium is often used in dioden and solar cells.
Minor use cases are heat exchangers of nuclear reactors and thermometers.

Greetings steinio

Thank you that appreciated my curiosity, steinio
Why i'm asked about these resources? Pyanodon wants to add chromium in his mod and Arch666Angel have unused unknow r3esources colled chrome ore, manganese ore and platinum ore and some of their processed version from his smelting mod

And some new interesting ore exist like palladium, it can be used:
1) In oil industry as materials for pipes for refining and as catalyst
2) In electronics
Correct me if I forgot something

[Arch666Angel]

[orzelek]

Niceeee
Starting new mod - Angel's warfare?

[aklesey1]

OMG it will be serious warfare

[hoho]

I hope that there will be comparable change to aliens too

Though using bob's alien and warfare stuff + natural evolution + misanthrope, with 90%+ evolution rate, pretty much the only way to clear nests is with turret creeping with sniper turrets. It might get easier with higher tier power armor but I somewhat doubt it. Some worms are throwing me with 4x melee behemoths and the pretty much instagib me through 10x L2 shields

[Breith]

Oh yes new warfare! Bob's warfare is wonderful to defend a base, but there is nothing really efficient to attack... and that's annoying! I need to clean the bitters close to my base.

[Arch666Angel]

https://youtu.be/udENzjNIcQ0

Say hello to my little friend!

[orzelek]

https://youtu.be/udENzjNIcQ0

Say hello to my little friend!

Looks cool

Make sure to give it nice stats and vehicle grid matching type of bob's tanks

[aklesey1]

https://youtu.be/udENzjNIcQ0

Say hello to my little friend!

Hello little friend!

[Arch666Angel]

After some discussion in twitch chat I scaled the model up a bit:


And then some more details

[aklesey1]

I begin to guess for what we need manganese and chrome, for these new awesome war tools - and they will be necessary for us to dope steel and to do new alloys - right Arch666Angel? And may be these guesses too banal, anyway I like ur creativity

[aklesey1]

How do u like this mod people https://mods.factorio.com/mods/momosundeass/BobExtended ?
This mod makes the game more longer and adding some changes to bob mods and angel mods
Seriously serious epic addition the gameplay, In particular he affects electronics and modules

I liked the last change in the bobextended mod - its affects the slag processing - in other words we can turn all ores - except yuoki ores - into slag!!! oh man i think its intersting? and we can mine iron and copper from slag using vanilla water
Yes yes the idea of Arch66Angel was changed, Arch666Angel conceived slag processing realization in a different way not so straight not so rough as u guys can see if u'll play with this mod
This mod is in deep development stage as i can understand, and gameplay are extending

Another intersting thing is "sturcture component" very probably as well as in dytech, may be MomoSundeass he is inspired by the ideas from this great mod system
It is necessary to recognize that as compensation evolution of bitters was reduced

[Light]

Angel, have you given much thought on how you're going to develop the bio-processing mod?
Not that I want to sound ungrateful, but it would be really nice to see that mod get some attention since it has a lot of possibilities but was thrown on the burner for quite some time.

One reason why I bring this up is due to a major issue I'm coming across lately which is too much liquid crystal. Due to the very limited recipes that utilize gemstones or crystals in general, they're just filling up dozens of pressure tanks at a rapid pace. While there could be neat things used in the warfare style mod you're developing, the crystal liquids certainly pertain more to the bio-processing category as organics can utilize crystallization.

It would also be nice to use the additional fluid or gems to create those special alien artifacts at home instead of constantly being on the hunt and raising their evolution rate faster.
The most obvious idea is utilizing diamond dust to create harder surfaces such as a grinding wheel that could be used in the smelting mod in some way.

In short, there's a need for a good gemstone sink. Especially when you can further refine gem chunks into crystal matrix to increase the crystal output by around x3.7 compared to chunks alone, thus making even the smallest ore operation a true gem making powerhouse.

Aside from that, hopefully some good plans with bio-processing and smelting are on the way. The potential is too great not to be intrigued by what may come.

[Mella]

Hi Arch666Angel
U made very cool mods, can ask u how we can play with your mods and bob mods? Here everything is so tangled, i see many people writing about links with bob mods and new ores

[aklesey1]

Angel's Triggers - Refining - Enable Furnace Types
This mods acts as a switch by toggling it on/off and enables furnace types for the ore refining machines when toggled on

What means ""furnace types" can u explain, what this trigger is intended for, what it will do?

[Light]

Angel, have you given much thought on how you're going to develop the bio-processing mod?
Not that I want to sound ungrateful, but it would be really nice to see that mod get some attention since it has a lot of possibilities but was thrown on the burner for quite some time.

One reason why I bring this up is due to a major issue I'm coming across lately which is too much liquid crystal. Due to the very limited recipes that utilize gemstones or crystals in general, they're just filling up dozens of pressure tanks at a rapid pace. While there could be neat things used in the warfare style mod you're developing, the crystal liquids certainly pertain more to the bio-processing category as organics can utilize crystallization.

It would also be nice to use the additional fluid or gems to create those special alien artifacts at home instead of constantly being on the hunt and raising their evolution rate faster.
The most obvious idea is utilizing diamond dust to create harder surfaces such as a grinding wheel that could be used in the smelting mod in some way.

In short, there's a need for a good gemstone sink. Especially when you can further refine gem chunks into crystal matrix to increase the crystal output by around x3.7 compared to chunks alone, thus making even the smallest ore operation a true gem making powerhouse.

Aside from that, hopefully some good plans with bio-processing and smelting are on the way. The potential is too great not to be intrigued by what may come.

To add to this information, I spent a few hours working on a dedicated gemstone processing plant and testing gave quite the surprise to gem output. (Though the math will vary since this was all tested and compiled in-game and not raw data for perfect calculations)

The following information uses 1 stack of blue and red geodes (400 geodes), plus the additional calculation using productivity modules for a "1 Gem Ore * 12 Raw * 3 Cut * 1 Polished" maxed outcome.
Using the three methods to create as many gems as possible with just 400 geodes, this was my result.

Crushing Geode Method - 275 Ores
Standard = 1,100 Polished Gems
Productivity = 9,900 Polished Gems

Gem Seed Method - 320 Ores
Standard = 1,280 Polished Gems
Productivity = 11,520 Polished Gems

Crystal Matrix Method - 736 Ores
Standard = 2,944 Polished Gems
Productivity = 26,496 Polished Gems

Then when looking at production of geodes in my moderately sized ore sorting line, I'm producing 980 geodes per minute. So using the Crystal Matrix Method, I can create around 66,240 polished gems per minute.
Considering I have around 740,000 geodes in storage since starting the game, that means I have an incredible 49,017,600 polished gemstones waiting to be made, assuming I use the highest yield outcome.

The most amusing calculation would be trying to determine how much quartz, steel, mineral oil and other materials are needed to create the wheels and compounds to accomplish this feat.

So yeah, there's a massive nerf required, if not with the addition of new recipes to make use of geodes, crystal matrix, or gemstones to vastly sink into, so there's no field of pressure tanks or warehouses taking up space because you can never come close to utilizing them fast enough.

I should also note that the Crystal Matrix Method feels the most satisfying to set up and is complex enough to feel worthwhile for increased yields, but due to the insane production rates there's never a need to use it since the Gem Seed Method gives you more than enough of every gem you ever need, even without productivity modules.

[Arch666Angel]

Thanks for your hard work. I'm really enjoying the extra nuance around mining and smelting, and petrochem is dizzying (in a good way).

I have some comments about fuel balance. Right now, because you get 2 carbon for each 1 coke + a trivial amount of carbon dioxide, the coke -> carbon converstion is a > 2x multiplier on the fuel value of coke. I think this makes carbon too good as fuel. Coke pellets are surely irrelevant because carbon is so cheap.

On the other hand, Petrochem solid fuel recipes require 3 coke (!) in addition to whatever you're putting into the fuel. Even just at the nominal fuel value of coke this is a mediocre deal, but if you consider the opportunity cost -- you could have turned it into carbon -- it's a negative deal even if the non-coke ingredients are null.

And on Bob's mutated third hand, there are alternative solid fuel recipes under Bob's Revamp's "solid fuel research" that sideline all the Angel's recipes by creating solid fuel for modest amounts of oil, with no coke. Whether the Petrochem recipes are too expensive or not, they're irrelevant as long as these recipes exist.

I'm still thinking about what needs to be done to bring the Angel's and the Bob's options in line. So far my ideas are:

1) Carbon should be nerfed, perhaps by reducing the fuel value from 6MJ to 4MJ, or even 3MJ.
2) Petrochem solid fuel recipes should be improved by either reducing the coke requirement to 1 (liquid fuel would have about 2MJ/unit whereas currently it is < 1MJ/unit) or removing the coke requirement and increasing the main ingredient requirements somewhat.
3) Regardless of where the values end up, Petrochem should replace, modify or merge with Bob's "solid fuel research" if Bob's is active, so that there is no discrepancy in fuel cost; or, they should fill different niches (for instance, Petrochem has slightly better recipes with the added cost of coke, and Bob's has slightly worse recipes with no coke).

What do you all think?

I'm using Angel's + Bob's + Marathon (with some homespun tweaks to bring Marathon costs and values to Angel's), but I've looked at the raw values to try and remove Marathon from this discussion since it's not officially supported w/ Angel's.

1) Pellets should be far superior to carbon because each step is an increase in fuel value.
2) and 3) I agree that there should be an override to the solid fuel recipes in Bob revamp, that's a mod I dont have and I really should look into, because there are several other recipes added by it and also by CMH Bobs that are not on par with petrochem recipes and disrupt the balance quiet a bit. To the fuel values: Reducing the coke to 1 unit and increasing the gas requirements sounds reasonable and is what I'm thinking about.

Niceeee
Starting new mod - Angel's warfare?

More like Angels Exploration, I want to include other aspects into it as well, everything that isnt in your base basically. I wont add grids to the vanilla vehicles, but instead come up with upgrades/better ones that have grids and specialized equipment, like the heavy tank, a mobile constructor (a big ass moving chest with a big ass roboport) and others. I'm doing the models at the moment, because I don't have that much time to spare and doing these is fun for me.

I begin to guess for what we need manganese and chrome, for these new awesome war tools - and they will be necessary for us to dope steel and to do new alloys - right Arch666Angel? And may be these guesses too banal, anyway I like ur creativity

They are there to make alloys, you wont ever use most metals in their pure form because they have attributes not desired by you, so you need to alloy them and improve certain aspects, that's what smelting mod is/will be all about.

Angel, have you given much thought on how you're going to develop the bio-processing mod?
Not that I want to sound ungrateful, but it would be really nice to see that mod get some attention since it has a lot of possibilities but was thrown on the burner for quite some time.

One reason why I bring this up is due to a major issue I'm coming across lately which is too much liquid crystal. Due to the very limited recipes that utilize gemstones or crystals in general, they're just filling up dozens of pressure tanks at a rapid pace. While there could be neat things used in the warfare style mod you're developing, the crystal liquids certainly pertain more to the bio-processing category as organics can utilize crystallization.

It would also be nice to use the additional fluid or gems to create those special alien artifacts at home instead of constantly being on the hunt and raising their evolution rate faster.
The most obvious idea is utilizing diamond dust to create harder surfaces such as a grinding wheel that could be used in the smelting mod in some way.

In short, there's a need for a good gemstone sink. Especially when you can further refine gem chunks into crystal matrix to increase the crystal output by around x3.7 compared to chunks alone, thus making even the smallest ore operation a true gem making powerhouse.

Aside from that, hopefully some good plans with bio-processing and smelting are on the way. The potential is too great not to be intrigued by what may come.

There is always the way to convert the crystal slurry to mineral slurry and then to ores.
But I will revisit the way goedes and gems are produced, the idea at the moment is to lose the matrix method and instead mix the seed with corresponding ores to produce gems. But also might end up that you make the gems from the seed and make some ultimate alien crystal thingy from the matrix. I like the idea of having a end-end-game resource where you need to combine all the other resources, something like yuokis unicomp just interpreted in my way.

I don't have that much time to spare at the moment due to be mid semester at university, so yes there are changes for the bio processing mod and they will include the return of the alien artefact production, but you have to be patient and to bear with me and my pace The process will continue what is already in bio processing, you have an intermediate product from the algae, then you can choose a direct processing or the decomposition. Direct processing has an output like the wood products with green algae, decomposition a gas product. Gas products can be produced elsewhere in petrochem, but are also needed for the algae production. Repeat this 4 times and you have your alien bacteria.