Development and Discussion

[Breith]

Morning thoughts:
-Sulfur from Coal recipe, to get a bit of sulfur early on if needed
-CO2 from burning wood, alternative from CO2 from coal. Wood could be replaced later on with wood pellets which can be made out of the algae (yay something for the bio processing mod!)

Sulfur from Coal isn't really needed. The chunk processing gives a lot of sulfur that I really do not know what to do with it (I little bit overextended my processing... Didn't realized that I need to keep smelting crushed Saphirite if I want a steady flow of iron. There is no way Chunks Saphirite can give enough iron early on).

CO2 from wood/coal, why not. Actually, I think that everything that increase the usage of wood might be useful, especially now that we have Greenhouse to produce it.

[Arch666Angel]

So I was poking about, it turns out that you can make any recipe with one input (or one item and one fluid input) into a furnace as opposed to an assembling machine, i.e., it lets those recipes be chosen on demand, even if you have multiple outputs. I just did a cheatmode test the ore crushers, floatation cells, and ore refineries, and they worked, so the leaching plants should as well. The sorters are harder to do, since some of the recipes for sorters use multiple inputs, even though it's arguably more valuable that these be converted to furnaces (due to their sheer size and the fact that they already have a bajillion outputs).

Have you considered turning some of the facilities into furnaces instead?

I know that furnace types work well with one input recipes eiter fluid or item, didn't know it works with both fluid and item. I did consider it one time to make at least the crusher a furnace type, but there are other up and downsides to be able to set a recipe and I stayed with them as assembler types. Where the furnace types works really well is with hidden recipes which is used excessively with all void buildings (e.g. flare stack and clarifier), the flare stack has a SHITTON of recipes (one for each fluid in petrochem), or the fluid splitters which are also furnace types with recipes. But if item+fluid works then I might change the upcoming heavy pump to a furnace type.

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The sulfur from coal would be before you get any floatation waste, so you can get the initial sulfur to get rid of crushed stone and slag with slurrying.

[Breith]

The sulfur from coal would be before you get any floatation waste, so you can get the initial sulfur to get rid of crushed stone and slag with slurrying.

Well regarding the time needed to set up everything in place, you will probably have the research for the floatation waste anyway... Especially when you add the smelting mod in the equation.

I always assumed that the point of this game is often to store stuff to use it later on. I do the same with slags. With the huge silos, I do not see any issue with that, so... well I'm really not sure that's needed. It might be more distraction than anything else.

[Nilaus]

The alien artefact creation will be in the new bio-processing alongside the wood/algae production chains. As with smelting I can drop a preview, but I havent done anything for it besides splitting it up.

A comment from my playthrough of the alien artifact creation. I could not get it started as it was a loop that multiplied 1 small alien artifact into multiple through Goo and Bacteria. How do you get the first in a campaign devoid of aliens?

[Arch666Angel]

The alien artefact creation will be in the new bio-processing alongside the wood/algae production chains. As with smelting I can drop a preview, but I havent done anything for it besides splitting it up.

A comment from my playthrough of the alien artifact creation. I could not get it started as it was a loop that multiplied 1 small alien artifact into multiple through Goo and Bacteria. How do you get the first in a campaign devoid of aliens?

Yeah it was a process you needed to kickstart, I always had the idea of windtrap farms where you have to filter spores from the air to get the process going, but never had the means to make something like that back then. Now I have and the air filter is already in petrochem, so yes the whole thing will change so that you dont need to kill an alien to start the process probably.


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Reworked the induction furnace for smelting

[Linkeron]

I think the power return on Coke Pellets is way too high for early game. Say you have a setup like this...

Belt of coal -> Inserter -> Ore Crusher -> Inserter -> Stone Furnace -> Inserter -> Assembling Machine -> Inserter -> Belt of Coke Pellets

Now, if you leave it be, eventually the furnaces will start to be powered by the Crushed Coal, with a fuel value of 4Mj each. One unit of Crushed Coal will provide the power to craft 46 units of Coke, which then makes 9.2 units of Coke Pellets. At 30Mj each that's 276Mj, or a net gain of 272Mj. For one item's power to give a 6800% return on power invested is rather ridiculous.

For a fix, I suggest maybe you actually lose Mj going from Coal to Crushed Coal. A good reasoning for that is with more surface area compared to Coal (Since right now you're effectively splitting the Coal in half), Crushed Coal burns through faster.

Also, I noticed with this setup that Inserters will fill the fuel slot of a Furnace to a full stack of 200 before turning any Crushed Coal into Coke.

[Exasperation]

Your math is a bit off. If you count the materials, your 9.2 coke pellets take:
9.2 coke pellet <- 46 coke <- 46 crushed coal <- 23 coal -> 178 Mj if burned straight.
Add in the crushed coal consumed by the furnace, and you're consuming 182 Mj of coal to get 276 Mj of pellets, an increase of ~52%. On top of that, there's the power used to run an ore crusher, an assembler, and 4 inserters, which also eat into your profit. Still decent, but not anywhere near a 6800% return.

[Arch666Angel]

Your math is a bit off. If you count the materials, your 9.2 coke pellets take:
9.2 coke pellet <- 46 coke <- 46 crushed coal <- 23 coal -> 178 Mj if burned straight.
Add in the crushed coal consumed by the furnace, and you're consuming 182 Mj of coal to get 276 Mj of pellets, an increase of ~52%. On top of that, there's the power used to run an ore crusher, an assembler, and 4 inserters, which also eat into your profit. Still decent, but not anywhere near a 6800% return.

I did eyeball it, but an increase of 5mj after 4 steps seems a descent but not OP increase in yield, if the math fits even better

The new induction furnace

[Neel]

Why not use carbon for fuel? Coke purification seems to take 5MJ coke + 1.6MJ CO2 (from 0.2 coal) to produce 12MJ of 2x carbon.

[pyanodon]

The new induction furnace

Loved it!!

[Linkeron]

Your math is a bit off. If you count the materials, your 9.2 coke pellets take:
9.2 coke pellet <- 46 coke <- 46 crushed coal <- 23 coal -> 178 Mj if burned straight.
Add in the crushed coal consumed by the furnace, and you're consuming 182 Mj of coal to get 276 Mj of pellets, an increase of ~52%. On top of that, there's the power used to run an ore crusher, an assembler, and 4 inserters, which also eat into your profit. Still decent, but not anywhere near a 6800% return.

Sorry if this is patronising, I'm not entirely clear what you mean.

You're talking about the Mj you get from processing coal straight into coke pellets, yes? I'm not talking about that. From coal to coke pellets is good, not OP.

What I'm talking about is that when you crush the coal, you get two crushed coal. Equivalent in Mj, yes, but I'm not talking about burning coal in the furnace to make the crushed coal, I'm talking about burning crushed coal in the furnace to make crushed coal. Burn one crushed coal to smelt two crushed coal to get two coke.

From burning off one piece of crushed coal in the furnace, you get the 46 coke from the reaction before having to burn a second crushed coal. You're not consuming coal in this process, you're refining it. You are, however, taking another piece of coal and hitting it with a hammer and then consuming that.

Imagine, if you would, a stack of college ruled paper 200 sheets thick, and each sheet is fused to the next atomically, beside two stacks of identical paper 100 sheets thick. They have the same potential energy, the 200 stack and the two 100 stacks combined. This potential energy can be measured in Mj. If you immolated all three starting at exactly the same time and time all three stacks, you would imagine the 200 stack would ideally burn precisely twice as long as the two 100 stacks, yes? This is not how thermodynamics works. The heat required to set the 100 stacks on fire would spread to the whole stack faster than the heat in the 200 stack because there is less mass, individually, to them for the heat to spread through.

Despite the combined mass and potential energy of the 100 stacks being the exact same as the 200 stack, they would burn a bit faster than half the time it takes to burn the 200 stack simply because the 100 stacks have more surface area between them. They have two extra faces.

[Arch666Angel]

Your math is a bit off. If you count the materials, your 9.2 coke pellets take:
9.2 coke pellet <- 46 coke <- 46 crushed coal <- 23 coal -> 178 Mj if burned straight.
Add in the crushed coal consumed by the furnace, and you're consuming 182 Mj of coal to get 276 Mj of pellets, an increase of ~52%. On top of that, there's the power used to run an ore crusher, an assembler, and 4 inserters, which also eat into your profit. Still decent, but not anywhere near a 6800% return.

Sorry if this is patronising, I'm not entirely clear what you mean.

You're talking about the Mj you get from processing coal straight into coke pellets, yes? I'm not talking about that. From coal to coke pellets is good, not OP.

What I'm talking about is that when you crush the coal, you get two crushed coal. Equivalent in Mj, yes, but I'm not talking about burning coal in the furnace to make the crushed coal, I'm talking about burning crushed coal in the furnace to make crushed coal. Burn one crushed coal to smelt two crushed coal to get two coke.

From burning off one piece of crushed coal in the furnace, you get the 46 coke from the reaction before having to burn a second crushed coal. You're not consuming coal in this process, you're refining it. You are, however, taking another piece of coal and hitting it with a hammer and then consuming that.

Imagine, if you would, a stack of college ruled paper 200 sheets thick, and each sheet is fused to the next atomically, beside two stacks of identical paper 100 sheets thick. They have the same potential energy, the 200 stack and the two 100 stacks combined. This potential energy can be measured in Mj. If you immolated all three starting at exactly the same time and time all three stacks, you would imagine the 200 stack would ideally burn precisely twice as long as the two 100 stacks, yes? This is not how thermodynamics works. The heat required to set the 100 stacks on fire would spread to the whole stack faster than the heat in the 200 stack because there is less mass, individually, to them for the heat to spread through.

Despite the combined mass and potential energy of the 100 stacks being the exact same as the 200 stack, they would burn a bit faster than half the time it takes to burn the 200 stack simply because the 100 stacks have more surface area between them. They have two extra faces.

I still dont get your point or what you are suggesting? The coal gets crushed, the crushed coal has more surface, so it will burn faster, the ingame consequence would be that the crushed coal should have a lower mj value instead of a higher one than coal?

[Linkeron]

Your math is a bit off. If you count the materials, your 9.2 coke pellets take:
9.2 coke pellet <- 46 coke <- 46 crushed coal <- 23 coal -> 178 Mj if burned straight.
Add in the crushed coal consumed by the furnace, and you're consuming 182 Mj of coal to get 276 Mj of pellets, an increase of ~52%. On top of that, there's the power used to run an ore crusher, an assembler, and 4 inserters, which also eat into your profit. Still decent, but not anywhere near a 6800% return.

Sorry if this is patronising, I'm not entirely clear what you mean.

You're talking about the Mj you get from processing coal straight into coke pellets, yes? I'm not talking about that. From coal to coke pellets is good, not OP.

What I'm talking about is that when you crush the coal, you get two crushed coal. Equivalent in Mj, yes, but I'm not talking about burning coal in the furnace to make the crushed coal, I'm talking about burning crushed coal in the furnace to make crushed coal. Burn one crushed coal to smelt two crushed coal to get two coke.

From burning off one piece of crushed coal in the furnace, you get the 46 coke from the reaction before having to burn a second crushed coal. You're not consuming coal in this process, you're refining it. You are, however, taking another piece of coal and hitting it with a hammer and then consuming that.

Imagine, if you would, a stack of college ruled paper 200 sheets thick, and each sheet is fused to the next atomically, beside two stacks of identical paper 100 sheets thick. They have the same potential energy, the 200 stack and the two 100 stacks combined. This potential energy can be measured in Mj. If you immolated all three starting at exactly the same time and time all three stacks, you would imagine the 200 stack would ideally burn precisely twice as long as the two 100 stacks, yes? This is not how thermodynamics works. The heat required to set the 100 stacks on fire would spread to the whole stack faster than the heat in the 200 stack because there is less mass, individually, to them for the heat to spread through.

Despite the combined mass and potential energy of the 100 stacks being the exact same as the 200 stack, they would burn a bit faster than half the time it takes to burn the 200 stack simply because the 100 stacks have more surface area between them. They have two extra faces.

I still dont get your point or what you are suggesting? The coal gets crushed, the crushed coal has more surface, so it will burn faster, the ingame consequence would be that the crushed coal should have a lower mj value instead of a higher one than coal?

Precisely!

The end return of Mj from coal to coke pellets should remain the same, however, Exasperation was correct in that the 52% Mj increase was good, but not OP. If you want to have, imo, a better scale, 8Mj-3Mj-4Mj-30Mj would be perfect.

It occurs to me now that I'm nitpicking about something that doesn't really matter in the end, anyway, but think of it like this. If I didn't like your mods then I wouldn't have critiqued them in the first place, and I love your mods

Change it, or don't change it, I genuinely don't care. I have been heard, and that's what I care about.

[Breith]

Well, it will burn faster... but also the temperature will be stronger, so I guess it generates more energy.

[Nilaus]

and now to something completely different...

Dear Mr Angel. Please add barreling functions for all your chemicals. My base is a mess because I am trying to store all the various chemical compounds I run across in large containers and the piping between them is getting rather absurd as well
My army of Robots are quietly looking down at the mess. They really wish to help, but they cannot grab the Methanol or the Formaldehyde to bring it where it is needed.

[Arch666Angel]

and now to something completely different...

Dear Mr Angel. Please add barreling functions for all your chemicals. My base is a mess because I am trying to store all the various chemical compounds I run across in large containers and the piping between them is getting rather absurd as well
My army of Robots are quietly looking down at the mess. They really wish to help, but they cannot grab the Methanol or the Formaldehyde to bring it where it is needed.

The problem is making all the icons needed for the fluids and barrels But I'm on it. Thinking about it, I can probably put it on the portal and update the icons progessively.

[jcranmer]

and now to something completely different...

Dear Mr Angel. Please add barreling functions for all your chemicals. My base is a mess because I am trying to store all the various chemical compounds I run across in large containers and the piping between them is getting rather absurd as well

Just use the omnibarrels mod.

[SPCCrow]

I was setting up all the processes to figure them out, and the steam cracker is taking in base mineral oil and residual gas but it is outputting base mineral oil, and not lubricant like the recipe is supposed to be. I'm using 0.1.12 petrochem on 0.14.9 factorio.

[aklesey1]

Yes? where to use lubreicant form vanilla if all recipes using base mineral oil now? if not all then most

[mexmer]

is there any way to get sulfur than from floatation waste?
seems i'm quite lacking sulfur (or rather dioxide and acid) ... well i know about different processes that produce floation waste, but income of sulfur from waste is rather low, and since sulfur is not minable, and cannot be obtained directly from oil cracking anymore, seems to be issue when it comes to advanced electronic.