Development and Discussion

[lovely_santa]

Apologies if this already exists somewhere, but when the update for 0.18 s fully released is there going to be a summarized list of changes?
From browsing through this it seems that some recipe and ratio changes might be occurring. Is that correct? I'd hate to mess up my very late game map.

0.18 has been released and every mod has a changelog, which you can view ingame for example. There are no game breaking changes, they should only be some ratio changes for balancing, and exploration/bio since those are still in development. The bio animalis has changed and the weapons of exploration have extended/updated. The weapons can still be quite OP, so don't hesitate to try them out on some biters.

Guess I'll try out Angel's science overhaul first then if that's now a thing! I wasn't expecting this much new content for an initial release. Figured at first it would just be fixes and updates. Quite exciting!

It is still heavily in development, so don't expect too much out of it, but it should be functional! (without bobs mods that is, when bob is active, the settings are forced off, for components and tech that is).

[Molay]

Awesome! Thank you for the speedy release! I'll be playing with Bob's as usual so I won't be able to comment on possible science changes.

Though I'm intrigued at the idea of Angel's being a standalone mod. What is up with that? I figure that is still WIP atm? Would be very interested to learn more about what the ultimate goal here is. Is Angel's future to be a standalone mod, or will it's cooperation with Bob's remain the primary focus?

I'll be jumping in soon. So happy Angel's is available once more thank you and the other people working so diligently on it!

Edit: perhaps a 0.18 release thread would be a good idea too?

[lovely_santa]

Awesome! Thank you for the speedy release! I'll be playing with Bob's as usual so I won't be able to comment on possible science changes.

Though I'm intrigued at the idea of Angel's being a standalone mod. What is up with that? I figure that is still WIP atm? Would be very interested to learn more about what the ultimate goal here is. Is Angel's future to be a standalone mod, or will it's cooperation with Bob's remain the primary focus?

I'll be jumping in soon. So happy Angel's is available once more thank you and the other people working so diligently on it!

Edit: perhaps a 0.18 release thread would be a good idea too?

Bob and angel just complement each other very well, the science overhaul and building overhaul are just 2 new additions to the mix. During the development, we first have to get a base line up, as in, with angels only. Angels is fully usable without bobs mods, bob just add different things across the board that angel doesn't. Angels mod will keep supporting bobs mods as it always has.

With that note, we rather have a working update of the current fully released version of angels up and running, compatible with bobs mods, and have a sneak peak available of the upcoming additions. The shortcomming is that the new features are not yet fully integrated with bobs mods.

You can use this development thread for discussion about this release as this is part of the development, including general feedback.

[Mecejide]

Now that its solder recipes have been removed, metal mixing furnaces are completely pointless in an Angelbob game and should be disabled.
Edit: nevermind, they aren't.

[zero318]

Is there any possibility of getting higher resolution building graphics at some point? I love the art style of Angel's mods, but over time it's been looking more and more out of place next to base game content.

Also, is there any comprehensive history of Angel's mods? The changelogs for some of the mods go back to before the oldest versions available on the mod portal, but there don't seem to be any other records from that time period. I've been particularly curious about what nodules were, whether angelsore7 used to be something else, and whether there's any relation to cartmen's mods.

[Molay]

So I haven't quite gotten to glass yet, but had a look at the greenhouses. 50sec to turn 2 wood (which makes 10 seedlings) into 15. Some 120kw on the greenhouse. So that's about 3 more wood worth of energy. That means you make some 10 wood per 50 sec. Or 0.2 wood per second. Unless I'm wrong on how power usage works?

I'm not sure what exactly got changed, but that's still a ton of free energy for such a simple low-cost building easy to set up in large quantities.

The greenhouse tech also unlocks converting trees to wood by hand. But trees only come into play with arboretums? It's a bit weird. Were greenhouses meant to also produce trees at a lower rate or something? Being an early inefficient source of trees that need to manually be turned into wood by the player until proper automation is unlocked with arboretums? (With sawblades?)

I looked a bit more into the bio techs and noticed a "mutation tech" allowing one to unlock all 3 types of trees and gardens. It's pretty damn expensive, which I do like a lot. Looks like something to set up much later and leave running for a few hours to get all types. Very cool. I think that's new.

As it stands I once again see no reason to use algae for boards, as I'll need wood for the underground belts and splitters anyway. Which is a shame; I think algae is pretty damn cool. Guess I'll need some paper at some point later, but not before I want to properly do farming. Could some process be considered to use algae/paper for the tier0 belt recipes, so greenhouses are no longer necessary? They are still the same old closed loop requiring a mere 2 wood to start up an endless wood supply. They don't interact with anything else, so they'll probably always stand out when using Angel's that is all about wide applications and cross-usage of products. Compared to algae which require water treatment and a multi step process, greenhouses are just way too simple. And too powerful.

[pezzawinkle]

Power from wood production is something that has been around for quite a while, it looks about right. I do not think this has been changed in the update (quite a long list to be fair).

With the wood by hand thing, i had nothing to do with that, but it sounds like it should be moved a tad later.

The mutations are indeed new, unlocked very late and are extremely expensive, i had seablock in mind while adding these.

The last point about paper etc... That will become a very big focus with angels-industries, just need to get that bob-compatibility patch updated, the Tech rework will not be for the faint-hearted.

@zero318 The graphics updates are on the to-do list, angel has kindly given some of us access to the original Cinema 4d drawings, so that we can update them, but that will be far from a quick process.
If you want to experience nodules, they were part of the pre-0.16 version of angels and was the only way to get chrome and manganese, the cupric/ferrous ores were added as a replacement in 0.16 removing nodules entirely (the gem recipe from mud washing is now a direct replacement in that pathway).
I am not sure about cartmens mods, that may have been before my time (0.14).

[zero318]

The graphics updates are on the to-do list, angel has kindly given some of us access to the original Cinema 4d drawings, so that we can update them, but that will be far from a quick process.
If you want to experience nodules, they were part of the pre-0.16 version of angels and was the only way to get chrome and manganese, the cupric/ferrous ores were added as a replacement in 0.16 removing nodules entirely (the gem recipe from mud washing is now a direct replacement in that pathway).
I am not sure about cartmens mods, that may have been before my time (0.14).

Would the models just need to be rendered in higher resolution or are there going to be changes? Admittedly some changes would be nice, like the chemical plant and other things that merely rotate pipes around a static sprite.

From what you're saying, it sounds like nodules were probably angels-ore7 since the only references to it currently are the icon graphics for gem washing. The filenames never really made sense since there's no concept of crushed/etc. for mud, but if they replaced a similar process that suddenly makes sense.

Regarding cartmen's mods, they're from 0.12 and 0.13. I'd happened to run across a reference to them in the modding help section and was curious what they were about, so I dug around on the forums until I found cartmen's original thread. Inside that Dropbox link, CI-oil_0.1.0.zip in the 0.13 folder has a bunch of icons that match Angel's petrochem (even a few extras in the same style, like sulphur gas). Feels like there's a story behind that.

[MysterGeOrGe]

Hello,

Thank tou for your work and the update, keep going! i am a big fan of this mod.

[Dregre]

Really appreciate the work and update!

One thing I still do wonder though, is it intended for Gas Wells to have such an obscene yield compared to Oil Wells in RSO? Started up a new save for 0.18 and the starting oil was a reasonable 90-150% on railworld, however the gas is at 7000-15000% yield. Resulting in a totaI yield of 732% oil vs 85000% gas. I cant help but feel there's a error somewhere.

[orzelek]

Really appreciate the work and update!

One thing I still do wonder though, is it intended for Gas Wells to have such an obscene yield compared to Oil Wells in RSO? Started up a new save for 0.18 and the starting oil was a reasonable 90-150% on railworld, however the gas is at 7000-15000% yield. Resulting in a totaI yield of 732% oil vs 85000% gas. I cant help but feel there's a error somewhere.

I think it was discussed at some point and Angel wanted to take a look at RSO definitions but it got lost.
When 0.18 version of mods is available I can take a look what needs to be doen to reduce percentages to reasonable values.

[Molay]

Orzelek while you're here! Could there be a setting to also generate starting patches of juvolite and crotinium (yellow/white)? It's something I specifically would like when playing RSO because I go for very sparse ore generation (increased region size, decreased chance) but with higher infinity portions and higher ore richness. I can often drive 2 minutes in each direction without hitting those two kinds of ore. I like the idea of outposts being far and rare. But I'd like the option to have all types before undertaking major exploration.

[danyax]

I need expert advice how to proceed in my A&B run. I do super-marathon run, expensive recipe and 10.000 science multiplier. While is may look impossible, actually is super fun, I already progressed close to Chemical Science pack.

The problem I see in 0.18 is bio-processing and Alien Life Sample. In 0.17 I just ignored Bio Processing at all, except wood production (which is essential, as Greenhouses as so slow and kills power/UPS). But now I understand that I can't progress to modules without bio-processing (splinters!). Finding thousands of Alien Samples is not a option, but to produce them I need research that requires Alien Samples. So I have modules essentially deadlocked, but modules are essential to progress further or I will kill by UPS.

Any advice how to fix it? I can program small changes to recipes using my own mod, so I do not request changes in base Angels. May be other players using high science multiples may appreciate this, I saw some people playing with up to 100-1000 multiplier.

Probably the simplest way is to cheat in enough Alien Samples to reseach tech that enables their production. But may there is better way?

[danyax]

I have a question on building tinting. Having numbers on items is good, but once placed all buildings look the same. I see that some buildings have different colors, like ore crushers, but others looks the same.

Another question is about color selection. It looks like Bob and Angel buildings have different color scheme for tiers. Would it make sense to align colors across two mods?

[lovely_santa]

So I haven't quite gotten to glass yet, but had a look at the greenhouses. 50sec to turn 2 wood (which makes 10 seedlings) into 15. Some 120kw on the greenhouse. So that's about 3 more wood worth of energy. That means you make some 10 wood per 50 sec. Or 0.2 wood per second. Unless I'm wrong on how power usage works?

I'm not sure what exactly got changed, but that's still a ton of free energy for such a simple low-cost building easy to set up in large quantities.

The greenhouse tech also unlocks converting trees to wood by hand. But trees only come into play with arboretums? It's a bit weird. Were greenhouses meant to also produce trees at a lower rate or something? Being an early inefficient source of trees that need to manually be turned into wood by the player until proper automation is unlocked with arboretums? (With sawblades?)

Yes, the manual wood is something new I added, but the bug here is that the greenhouses should not return any wood (but trees). I have it fixed for the next release of bio.

Really appreciate the work and update!

One thing I still do wonder though, is it intended for Gas Wells to have such an obscene yield compared to Oil Wells in RSO? Started up a new save for 0.18 and the starting oil was a reasonable 90-150% on railworld, however the gas is at 7000-15000% yield. Resulting in a totaI yield of 732% oil vs 85000% gas. I cant help but feel there's a error somewhere.

I did notice it, but didn't find a fix for it, no matter what settings I tweak, it seems to only increase . It's definetly on the list to have a look at, at some point.

Orzelek while you're here! Could there be a setting to also generate starting patches of juvolite and crotinium (yellow/white)? It's something I specifically would like when playing RSO because I go for very sparse ore generation (increased region size, decreased chance) but with higher infinity portions and higher ore richness. I can often drive 2 minutes in each direction without hitting those two kinds of ore. I like the idea of outposts being far and rare. But I'd like the option to have all types before undertaking major exploration.

They shouldn't be needed early game (similar to uranium). It could indeed be an idea to add a setting to allow them into the starting area (RSO?).

I have a question on building tinting. Having numbers on items is good, but once placed all buildings look the same. I see that some buildings have different colors, like ore crushers, but others looks the same.

Another question is about color selection. It looks like Bob and Angel buildings have different color scheme for tiers. Would it make sense to align colors across two mods?

There are 3rd party mods (shinybob and shinyangel) that tint them similarly.

[orzelek]

.. cut it to only relevent parts ..

Really appreciate the work and update!

One thing I still do wonder though, is it intended for Gas Wells to have such an obscene yield compared to Oil Wells in RSO? Started up a new save for 0.18 and the starting oil was a reasonable 90-150% on railworld, however the gas is at 7000-15000% yield. Resulting in a totaI yield of 732% oil vs 85000% gas. I cant help but feel there's a error somewhere.

I did notice it, but didn't find a fix for it, no matter what settings I tweak, it seems to only increase . It's definetly on the list to have a look at, at some point.

This is related to RSO config for this resource - it seems to have way to high values per spawn. Alternate option is that setting for normal value in Angels ore is to high. This can be validated by looking at those %-ages without RSO.

...

Orzelek while you're here! Could there be a setting to also generate starting patches of juvolite and crotinium (yellow/white)? It's something I specifically would like when playing RSO because I go for very sparse ore generation (increased region size, decreased chance) but with higher infinity portions and higher ore richness. I can often drive 2 minutes in each direction without hitting those two kinds of ore. I like the idea of outposts being far and rare. But I'd like the option to have all types before undertaking major exploration.

They shouldn't be needed early game (similar to uranium). It could indeed be an idea to add a setting to allow them into the starting area (RSO?).

We'd need to figure out where to put the setting. It can be a setting that is in Angel's ores and works both in it and in RSO or only in RSO. Not sure if I'd like to have special setting for one mod only in RSO but it's doable.
I'm not sure if angel's ores generates those two ins tarting area now? Maybe it's just a question of ore configs going out of date in RSO.

[Molay]

Oh RSO is up to date afaik. Those 2 ores never spawned in the start. I just bring it up because I run RSO to go for super sparse amount of patches. It makes the lack of the 2 types really noticeable due to the way refining works; to the point of having bots before I can even start pure iron sorting. The first occurrence is often minutes away. Which I do want long term! It just makes the first 20 hours quite painful by not being able to sort properly (though it's certainly no death sentence; crystallization goes a long way)

[brysamo]

So I just updated everything to 0.18 and it seems that some of the ore sorting recipes have been switched around. Looks like the 4x silver got switched with nickel, and the 4x nickel got switched with manganese.

[Molay]

For some reason helmod has a really hard time finding the recipes. It did not with the previous version. I often have to enable "disabled recipes" for them to show up. Or change the filter helmod sets based on the name, as it yields no results. Tinned copper cable is a good example of that. I'm not sure how the recipe search works, and how different the internal names are from the English localization, but something changed that causes helmod to have a really hard time with some things. Was wire changed to cable? And why would that cause these issues? I can start taking note of all offending recipes if that helps fix it. There's like half a dozen at least before even doing green science.

Also as to the early steel recipe requiring oxygen: that's quite annoying to be Frank. Problem is that there's no way to void gases yet. And all I got are the tiny 5k inline tanks for storage. I just keep deleting and rebuilding them periodically to get rid of the hydrogen. But it doesn't feel good. Perhaps unlocking proper store or the flare stack earlier?

Bob's greenhouses are not the early wood solution after all. Thing is the greenhouses are super easy to make early. But now we get the saplings in the seed extractor, which requires the better circuits (solder and carbon). It effectively unlocks no sooner than arboretums now, so I don't quite see the point. It's possible to hot wire some temporary circuit production, but it's still pretty involved requiring steel, handling non ventable gasses and processing coal to carbon. I felt quite silly crafting them as early as they unlocked; they're quite useless that early. Perhaps push them further back in the tech tree, or make the sapling generation available earlier? Progression feels quite convoluted to me.

Overall really enjoying it so far. About to stamp down green science then get into proper smelting. Not sure whether it's just me, but I took a lot longer to get to this point this time. Though admittedly I made the stupidest initial smelting setup that keeps blocking itself (so much for trying a new impromptu design). But I built it so tight I really don't have the courage to tear it down lol.

Really looking forward to get into farming after that. Looking at it all, I feel like not having any natural gas nearby is a great excuse to explore puffers more in depth.

[lovely_santa]

.. cut it to only relevent parts ..

Really appreciate the work and update!

One thing I still do wonder though, is it intended for Gas Wells to have such an obscene yield compared to Oil Wells in RSO? Started up a new save for 0.18 and the starting oil was a reasonable 90-150% on railworld, however the gas is at 7000-15000% yield. Resulting in a totaI yield of 732% oil vs 85000% gas. I cant help but feel there's a error somewhere.

I did notice it, but didn't find a fix for it, no matter what settings I tweak, it seems to only increase . It's definetly on the list to have a look at, at some point.

This is related to RSO config for this resource - it seems to have way to high values per spawn. Alternate option is that setting for normal value in Angels ore is to high. This can be validated by looking at those %-ages without RSO.

Even when playing without RSO, the Gas Wells where generating 200K+ yields, while the Oil Wells generated 2.5K yields with the same settings. This should be fixed in the next release of petrochem.

...

Orzelek while you're here! Could there be a setting to also generate starting patches of juvolite and crotinium (yellow/white)? It's something I specifically would like when playing RSO because I go for very sparse ore generation (increased region size, decreased chance) but with higher infinity portions and higher ore richness. I can often drive 2 minutes in each direction without hitting those two kinds of ore. I like the idea of outposts being far and rare. But I'd like the option to have all types before undertaking major exploration.

They shouldn't be needed early game (similar to uranium). It could indeed be an idea to add a setting to allow them into the starting area (RSO?).

We'd need to figure out where to put the setting. It can be a setting that is in Angel's ores and works both in it and in RSO or only in RSO. Not sure if I'd like to have special setting for one mod only in RSO but it's doable.
I'm not sure if angel's ores generates those two ins tarting area now? Maybe it's just a question of ore configs going out of date in RSO.

Angel can easily integrate those settings (for all ores even). It's just changing 1 single line to be a value from a setting rather than just hardcoded. So I'll put it on the todo list. Once released, we can see if it needs tweaking somewhere.

So I just updated everything to 0.18 and it seems that some of the ore sorting recipes have been switched around. Looks like the 4x silver got switched with nickel, and the 4x nickel got switched with manganese.

That would be unintended afaik... Do you have some before pictures? We should definitely address this. The only thing that really changed with sorting is some platinum got replaced with thorium...

For some reason helmod has a really hard time finding the recipes. It did not with the previous version. I often have to enable "disabled recipes" for them to show up. Or change the filter helmod sets based on the name, as it yields no results. Tinned copper cable is a good example of that. I'm not sure how the recipe search works, and how different the internal names are from the English localization, but something changed that causes helmod to have a really hard time with some things. Was wire changed to cable? And why would that cause these issues? I can start taking note of all offending recipes if that helps fix it. There's like half a dozen at least before even doing green science.

That's an issue on helmod end and not in angel. In the data stage, angel add his recipes, and in data update recipes change/get disabled to make the game uniform over all items. When playing with bob and angels together, angel will hide his tin wire and use bobs tinned copper wire. Both are seperate items, and angel just update his recipes to use the bob item for mod compatibility.

That said, it is realy on helmod end as I used/use FNEI while developing and FNEI seems pretty good with it, I never had to enable hidden recipes/items to find the items that where used... Maybe report this to helmod instead?

Also as to the early steel recipe requiring oxygen: that's quite annoying to be Frank. Problem is that there's no way to void gases yet. And all I got are the tiny 5k inline tanks for storage. I just keep deleting and rebuilding them periodically to get rid of the hydrogen. But it doesn't feel good. Perhaps unlocking proper store or the flare stack earlier?

Bob's greenhouses are not the early wood solution after all. Thing is the greenhouses are super easy to make early. But now we get the saplings in the seed extractor, which requires the better circuits (solder and carbon). It effectively unlocks no sooner than arboretums now, so I don't quite see the point. It's possible to hot wire some temporary circuit production, but it's still pretty involved requiring steel, handling non ventable gasses and processing coal to carbon. I felt quite silly crafting them as early as they unlocked; they're quite useless that early. Perhaps push them further back in the tech tree, or make the sapling generation available earlier? Progression feels quite convoluted to me.

I did oversee the issue with the seed extractor. You don't realy need that much steel early on anyway? I've changed the circuit ingredient in the next release of bio processing, so it can be build a lot easier with just automation science.

Overall really enjoying it so far. About to stamp down green science then get into proper smelting. Not sure whether it's just me, but I took a lot longer to get to this point this time. Though admittedly I made the stupidest initial smelting setup that keeps blocking itself (so much for trying a new impromptu design). But I built it so tight I really don't have the courage to tear it down lol.

Really looking forward to get into farming after that. Looking at it all, I feel like not having any natural gas nearby is a great excuse to explore puffers more in depth.

I am planning on expanding the puffers a bit more in the next 'real' update of bio, to have a mk2 breeding, so the puffers only give their specific egg back. Not sure yet how that will happen, but it might be a bit too difficult as it is now (with the byproducts, I think). Feel free to leave some feedback about it!