Development and Discussion

[BlueTemplar]

See Thoughts on ore processing

[mrvn]

I really like the bio processing stuff, especially the algae farms, but I do agree the orchard tech is a bit underpowered in terms of efficiency. I like the idea of increasing the space cost and decreasing the electric cost. The idea of tree farms as a solar panel substitute is apropos.

One thing that bugs me though, is the requirements for solid catalysts (green metal catalyst etc.) for certain processes in a number of chains, that require carriers. I understand that it is used for the best process, but really snarls up my favored lazy bastard on marathon approach, and makes Rail logistic network mini stations really complicated (as does anything which requires a "carrier/barrel" be transported over rail). I would appreciate if the red/green/blue metal catalysts did not require the carriers like the filters do (I dont mind filter carriers, those are easy to localize and keep off of the rails with ceramics) instead working more like the Mineral catalyst line, which do not require carriers. It's just an un-fun mechanic for certain playstyles. Maybe a config option?

I always ship in the required ores and refill the catalyst carriers in place. They are a closed loop and you only need to drop in a handfull when you blueprint the factory.

PS: There is also a hack to abuse the "building with modules" feature in blueprints to add other items with bots. E.g. catalyst carriers. That way you can blueprint a factory and it gets the required carriers without player intervention.

[BlueTemplar]

Oh, my bad, I didn't even think that you were talking about the catalyst "frames"...

[brokenshakles]

mrvn, I did consider that, but I expect it will make upstream distribution more complicated.... Ugh, it's always a compromise.

[Arch666Angel]

In collaboration with lovely_santa
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/angelsaddons-cab

[BlueTemplar]

In collaboration with lovely_santa
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/angelsaddons-cab

:D :D :D :D :D :D !

Would it work with 0.16? Or does it use some 0.17-only code ?

[mexmer]

In collaboration with lovely_santa
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/angelsaddons-cab

!

Would it work with 0.16? Or does it use some 0.17-only code ?

i hope it will break, it's uggly
looks like some perverted vacuum cleaner.

[Light]

In collaboration with lovely_santa
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/angelsaddons-cab

!

Would it work with 0.16? Or does it use some 0.17-only code ?

i hope it will break, it's uggly
looks like some perverted vacuum cleaner.

It breaks your game when you break it. (I also thought of a twin nozzle vacuum)

[klank98]

Didnt know where to put this.

Just wanted to say thank you for your work. This is one of my favorite mods, ever. Thank you for the countless hours of fun, and thank you for updating as quickly as you are. Just, thanks.

[Light]

After trying out the CAB, I do like how it's a mobile power plant to help setup outposts, but it's limited to just 500kw which isn't able to sustain a single laser turret.

I've tried adding additional transfer ports, vehicle fusion power, but it's set to 500kw regardless.

This vehicle could be the most valuable crawler for making outposts if the power output could be increased with more equipment, so a few laser turrets and even a radar could be sustained while you build up the perimeter around the CAB. There's a lot of potential here for sure, I just hope it's at least possible.

[Blood Angel]

Hello,

let me speak about Chloramine. IRL it's made from ammonia with sodium hypochlorite like in the game. but in the game there is only chloramine as result, instead of NH3 + NaOCl → NH2Cl + NaOH
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine#Production

as result, there is a big problem to make sodium hydroxide in waste-less factory (then you don't use flare stack, etc)..

with best regards...

[brokenshakles]

Yep, everything but the bio processing stuff is updated! Thanks so much to Arch666Angel for such a swift update! I hope to see Bio processing added to that list soon!

[Blokus]

Tree farming seems undertuned. The basic version is fairly powerful but limited by the number of trees you can find, which is fair.

It seems bumpy in regular Angel's because the trees are just plain difficult to find, but it's totally fair in Seablock. Eventually you switch over to arbitrarily scalable things, but there's nothing wrong with that.

But the "advanced" versions, which you could scale, aren't worth using. The amount of plastic/rubber is negligible and the amount of wood is not even that attractive. Seems uncompetitive with farming cellulose. Perhaps you could get a "tree farm" feeling by emphasizing the use of space as a cost. Make them even slower but very low electricity, the biological equivalent to solar panels.

IMO the whole concept of the "raw bio-X" recipes are non-starters. They're either going to be useless, the go-to option, or the go-to option until you run out of trees. To me none of those three are good choices. I generally agree with the philosophy of the "Oberhaul" mod (https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Oberhaul): Petrochem is meant to be centered around the production of plastic, lubricant, resin, and rubber.

Similarly I can't fathom Puffers. They require all these chemical support structures and maintenance of attrition, so using them is an interesting challenge. But the actual products don't seem to justify it. Do they even end up much smaller than the alternative setups? They cost more power. So it seems like they basically condense a few chains of chemical plants and such, but do a worse job. I feel like they want to have a higher constant cost to run in exchange for a more explicit reward.

If it weren't for the "mutation" mechanic, I could understand gaseous puffers, since they feed themselves and thus provide you with the acid gas products from, essentially, nothing. (So they are kind of an alternative to lime air filtering.) And at least in Seablock I can also understand rancid puffers, which seem like an adequate source of raw gas when raw gas is otherwise hard to get. The others seem useless, and the system doesn't provide a decent way to get rid of them, either (you can turn them into meat, but there's no good automatic sink for meat).

[BlueTemplar]

Tree farming seems undertuned. The basic version is fairly powerful but limited by the number of trees you can find, which is fair.

It seems bumpy in regular Angel's because the trees are just plain difficult to find, but it's totally fair in Seablock. Eventually you switch over to arbitrarily scalable things, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Well, on like 95% of maps that I've seen, you have at least 1 tree nearby.

And that one tree can take you very far :
I'm up to Blue Science on a single tree for power in my Seablock game
(another is making rubber for lulz,
and the last 3 are just chilling out in a chest),
and Helmod tells me that I can power like 8 Mk2 boilers with it (pre-coal pellets!).

But the "advanced" versions, which you could scale, aren't worth using. The amount of plastic/rubber is negligible and the amount of wood is not even that attractive. Seems uncompetitive with farming cellulose. Perhaps you could get a "tree farm" feeling by emphasizing the use of space as a cost. Make them even slower but very low electricity, the biological equivalent to solar panels.

IMO the whole concept of the "raw bio-X" recipes are non-starters. They're either going to be useless, the go-to option, or the go-to option until you run out of trees. To me none of those three are good choices. I generally agree with the philosophy of the "Oberhaul" mod (https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Oberhaul): Petrochem is meant to be centered around the production of plastic, lubricant, resin, and rubber.

They are interesting in the fact that they can make petrochem without oil/gas/? fields - so can Farming, but trees should still be more powerful because limited.

[raisins]

In my opinion the advanced tree farms need to be good enough for making wood such that they're worth having. Then the bio-whatever becomes a typical angel's improved tech complication, a useful minor "waste product".

[Blokus]

In my opinion the advanced tree farms need to be good enough for making wood such that they're worth having. Then the bio-whatever becomes a typical angel's improved tech complication, a useful minor "waste product".

That much I agree with; the wood return on the advanced ones is far less than the general purpose arboretums.

[Blokus]

And that one tree can take you very far :
I'm up to Blue Science on a single tree for power in my Seablock game
(another is making rubber for lulz,
and the last 3 are just chilling out in a chest),
and Helmod tells me that I can power like 8 Mk2 boilers with it (pre-coal pellets!).

That doesn't sound right, one tree with the starter arboretum recipes, and then processed to charcoal, gives 17.3 burner MW (gross), which is less than 5 mk1 boilers.

They are interesting in the fact that they can make petrochem without oil/gas/? fields - so can Farming, but trees should still be more powerful because limited.

That's appealing in and of itself, but not without both some complexity and viable throughput to back it up. Doing farming-based petrochem still has some complexity to it; even if you just do something simple like nothing -> syngas, you still have to actually run a syngas-based petrochem system.

[BlueTemplar]

And that one tree can take you very far :
I'm up to Blue Science on a single tree for power in my Seablock game
(another is making rubber for lulz,
and the last 3 are just chilling out in a chest),
and Helmod tells me that I can power like 8 Mk2 boilers with it (pre-coal pellets!).

That doesn't sound right, one tree with the starter arboretum recipes, and then processed to charcoal, gives 17.3 burner MW (gross), which is less than 5 mk1 boilers.

Ah, my bad, that might have been with Wood 2. Or I misremembered 6 for 8...
Wood 1 => Carbon is only enough for 18.54 MW (electric) worth of Mk2 Boilers, so 5.15 of them...
(with 3.4 MW spent on the production chain, and 0.18 Carbon/s = 0.65 MW (electric) = 0.18 boilers lost in the furnaces... so 5 Boilers are enough !)

[RemiFlan]

Been playing Seablock pack for a while now. Recently started exploring alternatives for oil making, because blue algae farms seem too bulky for me. Farming seems like an alternative path (good thing I started breeding gardens very early on), so I started doing some math. Can someone confirm my spreadsheet calcs for the most effective plants? Narrowing it down to 2 plants seems a bit lame tbh.

Also trying to put farming-oil production trees into one graph. Made a stub already, and then realised that someone probably already made one like that. Is there something similar here?





By the way, as for woodmaking, it is indeed the best way to generate power early and mid game, but if you also use Bob's mods (Bob's power in particular) - then sooner or later you'll switch to endless plutonium Nuclear loops anyways (edit: actualy I'm not sure which mode plutonium loop is from) and you won't need that much wood. I guess at that point Temperate\Desert\Swamp trees will become a nice plastic\resin\rubber supplement and the wood created should cover all charcoal\carbon\CO2 making costs (for smelting and other stuff). Haven't got to that part myself yet, but that seems to be the plan.

[BlueTemplar]

Narrowing it down to 2 plants seems a bit lame tbh.

Well, it would make sense that different plants would be good for different things. And maybe also even if one of the biomes wasn't really good for oil ! (Especially if it's the one that makes "Tree Plastic" ?)

(Also IIRC you can't make oil from blue algae in Angel, only in Seablock?)