Development and Discussion

[Amyclas]

Do you know how ridiculously hard it is to get nickel, iron and cobalt into one place just to turn 12 iron ingots into 36 molten iron/steel... combining outputs from multiple types of refined ores... fun.

[septemberWaves]

Do you know how ridiculously hard it is to get nickel, iron and cobalt into one place just to turn 12 iron ingots into 36 molten iron/steel... combining outputs from multiple types of refined ores... fun.

It really just depends on whether you plan for it or not. Also, if you have separate ore refineries from metallurgic processing facilities, it's relatively easy to just ship in each base material with trains.

[Amyclas]

I guess I really need to learn how to train. They seem to make a lot more sense than belt spam because you can move multiple resource types on the same railway line.

I copied someone's rotary junction, it seems to be the most economical type of junction, but i'm not sure how it will scale up for train spam.

[Light]

I guess I really need to learn how to train. They seem to make a lot more sense than belt spam because you can move multiple resource types on the same railway line.

I copied someone's rotary junction, it seems to be the most economical type of junction, but i'm not sure how it will scale up for train spam.

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Optera/L ... ainNetwork

This mod is mandatory for a great train bus. It cuts out a lot of the tedium of setting up individual trains, as it only requests trains as needed and transporting only the materials you need to the destination that's requesting it.

I'm sure Nilaus has a tutorial on the logistics trains on Youtube if you need some assistance on the mods use. Eventually you'll fall in love with logistic trains and will use them at any chance you can for large scale transportation.

[Amyclas]

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Optera/L ... ainNetwork

This mod is mandatory for a great train bus. It cuts out a lot of the tedium of setting up individual trains, as it only requests trains as needed and transporting only the materials you need to the destination that's requesting it.

I'm sure Nilaus has a tutorial on the logistics trains on Youtube if you need some assistance on the mods use. Eventually you'll fall in love with logistic trains and will use them at any chance you can for large scale transportation.

That looks amazing. The setup I had on a 3-man multiplayer game where someone else did the trains just had saphirite being dumped wholesale into warehouses near the refineries. Smaller trains were used to ship fluids over long distances.

[septemberWaves]

I guess I really need to learn how to train. They seem to make a lot more sense than belt spam because you can move multiple resource types on the same railway line.

I copied someone's rotary junction, it seems to be the most economical type of junction, but i'm not sure how it will scale up for train spam.

Once you start using trains, you get used to it very quickly. Here's a few basic rules:
• Rail signals (and chain signals) divide the rail network into blocks. They show for trains of up to 5 long, but technically work for any length of train.
• Place rail signals regularly along the length of your rail to divide the rail system into plenty of blocks. A train can enter a block if that block does not currently contain another train.
• Place a chain signal before every split or cross in the rails.
• Place a rail signal at the end of a junction (when you don't have any more splits in the rails for at least a block of distance).
• If you have a station that leads directly towards a junction, place a chain signal right at the end of the station (immediately after the station tile).
• Always use a one-way-drive system for your main rail lines, and have an equal number of rails going in each direction. Not technically necessary for stations, which can have a single entrance/exit if you're using double-ended trains.
• If using single-ended trains, the only loops in your system should be the stations. The entrance should be fed from both directions of the main rail, and the exit should lead to both directions of the main rail.
• If using double-ended trains, don't use looped stations. Just have a single entrance/exit rail and make sure the exit can't be blocked.
• Use chests for buffers on both the input and output. Limit the chests for each wagon input so that they can't store more in total than the total capacity of a cargo wagon.
• Refuel your trains at their normal stations. Don't try to send them to a dedicated refueling station, it'll quickly get overcrowded.
• In almost all cases, you should dedicate every cargo wagon on a train to the same resource, and use that train exclusively for transporting that resource. Some cases may need mixed trains though; it's really up to you and you'll most likely find situations where it's best to mix the train.

Using these rules (which are more than I had to go by when I started with trains) you should be able to learn how to use trains pretty quickly, and you'll eventually learn to make your own junctions and stations for when your rail system requires more trains than a four-lane system (which is most people's maximum). I'd suggest installing the creative mode mod and playing around with trains in a creative world to see what works and what doesn't.



Now, for using rail networks with Angel's mods, there's quite a few things I'd like to suggest:
• Learn to use trains, and get used to using them a lot. Angel's mods require huge amounts of space more often than not, so you'd be best off splitting your factory into numerous outposts and shipping material by train rather than trying to use belts and pipes for long-distance transport.
• Install the Rail Tanker mod. You'll need it for petrochem things, and some of those are useful for the metallurgy and refining too.

• Set up at least one refinery for each base ore type (Bobmonium, Crotinnium, Jivolite, Rubyte, Saphirite, Stiratite). This refinery should go through the crushing, hydro refining, and chemical refining stages, and produce the outputs of each (crushed ore, ore chunks, ore crystals). There's not really any need for purified ore from the main ore refineries, unless you want to use imprecise ore sorting with it.
• Ship out the three products from the ore refinery by train. Transport crushed ore to a precise sorting facility to create iron, copper, lead and tin ores (these processes don't need mineral catalysts and the materials are used frequently).
• Transport ore chunks to a facility which uses imprecise sorting on the chunks (to gain 4 ore outputs per chunk type, plus slag), and which also uses precise sorting for any ores you find yourself in extra need of (you'll likely need this process for silicon, for example). You can generate mineral catalysts on-site but I'd recommend shipping them in by train.
• Transport ore crystals to a facility that only uses precise sorting to produce the high-end materials (like gold) in bulk. You'll obtain some of these from imprecise sorting of ore chunks, but you'll almost certainly need to supplement that production with precise sorting. This will use mineral catalysts, which once again I'd recommend shipping in by train. This facility should also include an area for thermal refining, so that you can produce the three purified ore types necessary for precise ore sorting to tungsten ore.
• Many of these processes require fluids. You'll need to produce purified water, which should probably be done on site. Chemical refining should be done in the same location as hydro refining because in most cases it consumes the byproduct of hydro refining (e.g. chemical refining of Jivolite consumes hydrofluoric acid at the same ratio as can be produced by processing the fluoric waste water from hydro refining of Jivolite). You'll most likely use hydro refining a lot more than chemical refining, and that'll produce some byproducts. Some seem fairly useless, but it's worth exporting fluorite, sulfur, mineralized water, and saline water (or the waste water products directly if you don't want to reprocess those on site) because there may be need for those elsewhere. This is why I suggested the Rail Tanker mod, as many of these byproducts are fluids.
• Once you have the metallic ore types (iron, aluminium, cobalt, etc), treat them as end products and ship them out by train. Keep in mind that manganese and chrome ores are obtained via the seafloor pump rather than the usual ore processing method. You'll want a separate, dedicated facility for that (and limestone production since that also comes from mud water)

• For metallurgy, you have a few options. You can create one large metallurgic processing center that will take all metallic ores as inputs and create all metal plates as outputs, you can create several separate facilities for producing each type of plate from ore, or you can create separate facilities for smelting (ores to ingots) and casting (ingots to plates). I would generally prefer the third option, because some ingots are used for multiple plate types.
• For the ingots it's relatively simple. You'll input ores, and output ingots after a few machine processes. Higher tier processes for most materials will require several secondary inputs, and some processes have a resource loop (manganese ingot processing has one using iron ingots, for example). There are also byproducts in some cases, and you should export those on a separate train from your ingots.
• For plate processing, things get a little more complex. For the more commonly-used plates, such as iron, steel, and aluminium, or for plates with very rare ores like tungsten, you tend to need multiple ingot types, hence splitting ingot and plate production into separate facilities. I don't think you need anything other than ingots though, so you probably won't need to worry about any unusual imports (like sodium-related items or limestone used in some ingot production). Shipping them in by train allows you to avoid the problem brought up earlier regarding difficulty getting all of the ore-to-plate production in the same location.
• Some ores are pretty much useless (or nearly-useless) in plate form. Cobalt, manganese, and chromium are the examples I can think of right now but there may be others depending on your play style. That also means you'll need ingot production but not plate production, which is another point in favor of splitting ingot production from plate production. These three ores in particular are, while pointless as plates, very useful for increasing the yield of rarer resources. And cobalt is in most cases the best material to mix in with the tungsten powder before sintering. In general, you won't necessarily always want to go for the process that uses the most different ingot types. It'll depend on your production of each ore, and your consumption of each plate. You should probably try to have at least one process consuming cobalt though, unless you're going for exclusively precision ore sorting so you don't get any cobalt ore production (because in plate form it's used only for cobalt steel, which makes a piece of armor and an axe).

• Beyond the ore processing and metallurgy, the other major part of Angel's mods is petrochem. That's a whole different realm of processing and you'll really start wanting the rail tankers for it. As for exactly what you should do, it varies widely depending on what materials you need, how you want to produce those materials, what byproducts you would prefer to have, and what hydrocarbon source you have easiest initial access to. Basically though, refining should be done separately from processing, and if you have a process that produces a petrochemical used frequently in the production of other petrochemical processes, export it by train.
• Bob's mods are popular to use with Angel's mods, and one of their key aspects is circuit production. You'll want a train for both of the first tier circuits, but only the most advanced circuit from each other tier (as the initial circuit in the tier is used only for modules and the next circuit in the same tier). You might want to centralize all circuit production, but it's probably easiest to separate them by tier. Try to limit imports to the basic materials (wood, plastic, metal plates, etc) and do as much production from those materials as you can on-site. This will limit the number of odd trains you have around (there's no need for a transistor train, for example, just produce them on site for the circuits that need them).
• For most end products (assemblers, robots, mining drills, etc) you probably won't need an output train. You might want a personal work train that can be loaded with all of the materials you need for building an outpost, and for that you should have it loaded from logistic requester chests (as soon as you obtain them) at a single factory that produces all of the items you want on the train.You probably should also make a separate service station at every factory you'll be servicing so that your service train won't get unloaded by the import stations or block any resource trains.

[Amyclas]

Quick question on that text wall: what is imprecise sorting?

I have filter inserters taking everything to their correct belt at the moment. I've seen some setups that dump everything into one output and then try to sort it out later. It seemed... non-optimal.

In my single player game my clusterfucked 77 hour old base is producing just enough iron and steel to set up a rail network. I have minimal oil and plastic production that gives me just enough lube for electric engines, and barely functional electronic circuit and logic board production.

I have a single sitarite refinery set up that will probably provide just enough titanium and alumium for building outposts and setting up mk 3 buildings.

From here I guess I'll do what I did with my coal-age base, abandon development on it, but use its resources to build a new more advanced base. Which means building the rail network and redesigning all the refineries and production centres from scratch.

My mod list is from a friend's dedicated server, I use it as a reference but keep all the mods updated.
I have bobs and angels and rail tankers installed the full is is:

Additional Turret
Advanced Radar
Always show recipe products
angels adddons oldunkle
angelsaddons pressure tanks
angelsaddons warhouses
angels bioprocessing
angelscomponents
angelsinfiniteores
angelspetrochem
angelsrefining
angelssmelting
angelstrigger petrochem showconverterrecipe
angelstrigger refining enableproductuvity
asphaltroads
autodeconstruct
autofill
automatic requests
belt reverser
bigger stack sizes
blueprint string
bob assembly
bob config
bob electronics
bob eenemies
bob fusion robots
bob greenhouse
bob inserters
bob library
bob logistics
bob mining
bob modules
bob ores
bob plates
bob power
bob revamp
bob tech
bob vehicle equipment
bob warfare
bot replacer
bottleneck
bullet trails
burner leech
curved rail
daynight extender
distnace plus
exoskeleton mark II
explosive termites
factorissimo 2
fix recursive hand crafting
flare stack
flow control
flow control bobs
force fields
inventory sensor
ks power
lqtosol
long loot research
long mine research
long pickup research
long reach research
map ping
map labels
more locomotives
paymentdriveassist
PCP - (petrochem plus)
picker extended rail icons
rail power system
rail tanker
rail tanker alt texture
rampant
realistic power
rso mod
shiny bob
squeak through
storage tank 2
terraforming
textplates
the fat controller
tomb stones
transformer
uranium power
useful by products
useful combinators
useful info
vehicle wagon
water well

I just downloaded: Logistic Train Network to add to the fun.

I admit to having no idea how rail power system would work.

[Amyclas]

I have a new plan of attack:

This is where I spawned, now covered in super low-power solar panals thanks to the realistic power mod nerf.



This is my science-age base with red green blue-alien science capabilities all automated. It is also packing a nuclear fuel refinery from the slag. I have a reactor and 5 turbines in the west.



This is the overall map and my plans for a rail bus and outpost system to replace my current base.



I just need to spank the aliens occupying my future turf, using the unstoppable power of the sniper-turret mk1 loaded with depleted uranium. Then build the rail system that will connect the future outpost system, and then figure out facilities for each location. Easy. It'll only take me several weeks of consecutive play.

[Amyclas]

I got a major shock at the updated 0.6.13 angels refining when I discovered that uranite and fluorite production from slag got nerfed. It was my main source of power and ammo... I had to dig through the files to learn what was changed...

Tis not cheesy. Uranium is a common element in the natural environment. The fun is in refining it into a workable state.

[Arch666Angel]

I got a major shock at the updated 0.6.13 angels refining when I discovered that uranite and fluorite production from slag got nerfed. It was my main source of power and ammo... I had to dig through the files to learn what was changed...

That were the changes Fatmice himself suggested, but he has/had no plans to push another update pre-0.15.

[Amyclas]

Mighty ArchAngel,

The strand casting machine is not implemented yet is it? It's a requirement for titanium rolls, but I can't find the building in recipes or reseraches.

[aklesey1]

Mighty ArchAngel,

The strand casting machine is not implemented yet is it? It's a requirement for titanium rolls, but I can't find the building in recipes or reseraches.

Yes i have this issue too

[septemberWaves]

Quick question on that text wall: what is imprecise sorting?

I probably should've clarified that, I'm used to using the terms in my planning sheets and forget that they're not the actual terms. By "imprecise" sorting, I mean using the ore sorting methods that take a single type of crushed ore, ore chunks, ore crystals, or purified ore and turn it into several different types of metallic ore (plus slag in most cases). I call it imprecise because you can't choose what ores you get more of. By "precise" sorting, I mean the ore sorting methods which consume two or three types of refined Angel's ores plus a mineral catalyst in most cases, and produce a single type of metallic ore.

The reason I suggest using a combination of both ore sorting methods is because, as you may have discovered already depending on how long you've been playing, many metallic ores are not used as frequently as they are produced by imprecise sorting methods. You could solve this problem using an item void if you have a mod installed that adds one, but that's inefficient and wastes material. I suggest using precise sorting to supplement the imprecise sorting because it means you won't get a backlog of ores, but it is generally more complicated as it requires several ore types and mineral catalysts in most cases which means it's not exactly ideal to have it as the only source of most metallic ores.

[Light]

I got a major shock at the updated 0.6.13 angels refining when I discovered that uranite and fluorite production from slag got nerfed. It was my main source of power and ammo... I had to dig through the files to learn what was changed...

Tis not cheesy. Uranium is a common element in the natural environment. The fun is in refining it into a workable state.

Nuclear Power had no downsides whatsoever with Angel's. The old balance allowed you to create thousands of rods and easily satisfy 40+ reactors, plus the creation of the most OP ammo in the game at rapid speed.

Fatmice had intended that rods are harder to fabricate so that once you wanted to go nuclear, you had to be absolutely prepared to go down that path and try your hardest to keep it sustained, via rod recycling or a large setup dedicated to production. As one of the main issues with Angel's is that infinite ores and infinite slag from water provide unlimited resource production, thus reactors could be sustained indefinitely with all the uranite and fluorite you'd ever need at a relatively early stage of the game. (Just 1-2 hours in a new game to make a fully functional 250MW reactor from my experience) This now corrects the flow so you will need more boilers and solar until you're more ready in the mid-late game, rather than ignoring those options just a few hours in for the superior option.

You should see his plans after 0.15, they'll be far more interesting for some powerful late game power options, which will be much better than a single chemical plant line to make rods with.

[solntcev]

Chunks sorting was not affected with this update, you can get 1 uranium ore from 6 jivolite chunks and 1 fluorite ore from 6 crotinnium chunks.

[quenenni]

Chunks sorting was not affected with this update, you can get 1 uranium ore from 6 jivolite chunks and 1 fluorite ore from 6 crotinnium chunks.

What??!! That's a completely new info.. and strangely contradictory..
I asked 1 week ago about how to create fluorite ores and 6 crottinium wasn't an option to the answer I received. Also, I never saw that possibility when searching in the tech tree or elsewhere..
Is that a new feature? I guess not as you say it was not affected by this update.
So when exactly was this crottinum to fluorite thingy added?

[kinnom]

Now that 0.15 is out, maybe it would be a nice option to use the different acids to mine the infinite ores.

[Light]

Chunks sorting was not affected with this update, you can get 1 uranium ore from 6 jivolite chunks and 1 fluorite ore from 6 crotinnium chunks.

What??!! That's a completely new info.. and strangley contradictory
I asked 1 week ago about how to create fluorite ores and 6 crottinium wasn't an option to the answer I received. Also, I never saw that possibility when searching in the tech tree or elsewhere..
Is that a new feature? I guess not as you say it was not affected by this update.
So when exactly was this crottinum to fluorite thingy added?

Fluorite ore for the uranium power mod was a separate item from the fluorite ore used for hydrofluoric acid. A recent migration was added that combined the two into the same item due to many suggesting that being done, alongside Fatmice approving of such.

So yes, it's a new feature of sorts. The uranium power mod is still required to do so, but obtaining fluorite ore through this method is largely inefficient, especially if creating hydrofluoric acid is your primary goal with it.

[quenenni]

Chunks sorting was not affected with this update, you can get 1 uranium ore from 6 jivolite chunks and 1 fluorite ore from 6 crotinnium chunks.

What??!! That's a completely new info.. and strangley contradictory
I asked 1 week ago about how to create fluorite ores and 6 crottinium wasn't an option to the answer I received. Also, I never saw that possibility when searching in the tech tree or elsewhere..
Is that a new feature? I guess not as you say it was not affected by this update.
So when exactly was this crottinum to fluorite thingy added?

Fluorite ore for the uranium power mod was a separate item from the fluorite ore used for hydrofluoric acid. A recent migration was added that combined the two into the same item due to many suggesting that being done, alongside Fatmice approving of such.

So yes, it's a new feature of sorts. The uranium power mod is still required to do so, but obtaining fluorite ore through this method is largely inefficient, especially if creating hydrofluoric acid is your primary goal with it.

That makes sense. And I'm happy that happened.

I succeeded (thanks to your previous advice) to have the fluorite I needed or more precisely the Hydrofluoric acid I needed to have enough for the tungsten (Hexafluoric Acid) and jivolite processes.
All that is on automatic mode now. It seems to be working nicely, but I've yet to check the consumption of everything around fluorite.

Thanks a lot for your clarifications.

[NekoDwarf]

Any plans to update mods for 0.15 ?