[TOGos] [For 0.17] [0.16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

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[TOGos] [For 0.17] [0.16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Tyran_Scorpi » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 pm

Problem occurred in 16.0 as well as 16.1
Fresh map was generated in 16.0
I walked for 5 minutes in each cardinal direction and found no cliffs when they had been set to normal/medium at map generation.
I expected to find cliffs.

This is reproducible every time with the following exchange string:

>>>eNpjYBBgYGRgYGBk5WFJzk/MYWRh5krOLyhILdLNL0oF8jiTi0pT
UnXzM3OYWJjZUlKLU4tKmJmZWVIywTRXal5qbqVuUmJxKhMzM2t6UWJ
xMVCYI7MoPw9qAktxYl4KUIy1uCQ/DyTAWlKUmgpSxV1alJiXWZoLUg
g0nYHR2/H+34YWOQYQ/l/PYPD/PwgDWReATgRhIGBlYAQKwABrck5mW
hoDg4IjCDMyMlaLrHN/WDXFnhEir+cAZXyAikTshoo8aIUyIlZDGR2H
oQyH+TBGPYzR78BoDAaf7REMiF0lQJOhlnA4IBgQyRaQJCNj79utC74
fO2DHOM0vP1i+OsCeMVM21Feg9L0dUJIdFP5McGLWTBDYCfMBA8zMB/
ZQqZv2jGfPgMAbe0ZWkA4REPFXAWjTAW9gKArwAbkLeoCEggwDzGl2M
GNEHBjTwOAbzCePYYzL9uj+UHFgtAEZLgciToDTCQPcSKDLGKHMSAeI
hCRCFqjViAHZ+hSE507CbDyMZDWaG1RgbjBxwOIFNBEVpIDnAtmTAid
eMMMdAQzBC+wwHjBumRkQ4IN9U9UjPgB/xJG9<<<

Generate a preview, and it will show no cliffs. Now go to the terrain settings tab, and set the cliff size to big. Select generate preview again and you will see cliffs now spawn, but only in the starting zone. You can enter the game and the map will accurately follow what is shown in the preview.

Here is a shot of the game in progress with the explored area:
Image

Here is a shot of the preview screen with the cliff size set to big:
Image

I am not running any mods. I can get a save game for you but as this problem occurs at map generation I don't see how it would be useful. Let me know if I need to add one.

EDIT: In addition, I have poked a friend on discord, and they have reproduced the error by following the above.

EDIT 2: I have also reproduced the error with a map generated in 16.1, and it only took about 10 to 15 random seeds before it gave me another one with this issue. (4111048762) The issue appears to be somehow linked to the settings you have selected for water. as if you take the seed and reduce the water size it will start to spawn cliffs once you get below a certain threshold.

EDIT 3: Changing the cliff frequency appears to have no effect on cliff generation.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Twinsen » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:01 am

It's a known issue.

Unfortunately the fix will be in 0.17 since we can't change map generator without creating glitches in existing saves.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Gergely » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:52 pm

Twinsen wrote:It's a known issue.

Unfortunately the fix will be in 0.17 since we can't change map generator without creating glitches in existing saves.
WHAT THE HECK?! And WHAT will happen if something is wrong with the map-gen in 0.17 as well? We will wait for 0.18? :x It is an experimental release so nothing is fixed. (set in stone) What's wrong with changing it? 0.17 will ruin 0.16 maps anyway. What's the difference?
Last edited by Gergely on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Xterminator » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:35 pm

Twinsen wrote:It's a known issue.

Unfortunately the fix will be in 0.17 since we can't change map generator without creating glitches in existing saves.
This seems a bit silly to me. Wouldn't it make more sense to fix an issue and cause glitches in existing saves that may only be a week or two old, rather than waiting and breaking/glitching saves that people may have worked on for months and months?
Unless of course there is other stuff coming in 0.17 that will break saves anyway, in which case disregard what I've said. :)
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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Zavian » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:01 pm

Twinsen wrote:It's a known issue.

Unfortunately the fix will be in 0.17 since we can't change map generator without creating glitches in existing saves.
To be honest, I think you probably need to iterate on map generation with player feedback at some time. And 6 months between iterations isn't really going to cut it. So might as well do it with the experimental releases. (The alternative might be to release a very cutdown version of the game as a separate executable or download, where players can generate and explore the map from god mode, and then provide feedback).

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by steinio » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:08 am

Twinsen wrote:It's a known issue.

Unfortunately the fix will be in 0.17 since we can't change map generator without creating glitches in existing saves.
What?
If you like, change it now.
It's Early Access, so we are used to extreme changes and count on it :)
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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Gergely » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:13 pm

I add in the fact that there are cliffs in starting area on normal settings with rational and obvious seeds like 0.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by doppelEben » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:29 pm

Twinsen wrote:It's a known issue.
Unfortunately the fix will be in 0.17 since we can't change map generator without creating glitches in existing saves.
makes totally sense... this way all 0.16 savegames have glitches aswell, right? instead of fix it now and play 0.16 ff. with proper savegames and better map-generator...

How long is it a "known issue" already? 0.14? 0.12? 0.15?

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by milo christiansen » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:22 pm

doppelEben wrote:How long is it a "known issue" already? 0.14? 0.12? 0.15?
Cliffs were added in 0.16

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by HadesSupreme » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:51 pm

What would actually break if this were fixed? I'm guessing all that would happen is newly generated chunks look ugly thanks to a discontinuous border? I don't see that as a problem worth delaying a fairly important fix to a new feature. The old saves are still perfectly playable after all.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Gergely » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:28 pm

I created a poll about whether or not this (and some others) should be fixed by the time 0.16 becomes stable. It is available here.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by TOGoS » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:00 pm

Elevation in the starting area is generated using a different function than for the rest of the map. This is to guarantee certain characteristics (has a lake, has land, has a patch of every ore), so although it looks a bit odd, I've considered it more a quirk than a bug. That said, I am working on changes for 0.17 that should allow us to get rid of the special case for starting areas. As long as the starting area has already been explored I don't expect this will create discontinuities in migrated maps.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Jap2.0 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 pm

TOGoS wrote:Elevation in the starting area is generated using a different function than for the rest of the map. This is to guarantee certain characteristics (has a lake, has land, has a patch of every ore), so although it looks a bit odd, I've considered it more a quirk than a bug. That said, I am working on changes for 0.17 that should allow us to get rid of the special case for starting areas. As long as the starting area has already been explored I don't expect this will create discontinuities in migrated maps.
Is there any chance this will be done before 0.16 is stable? I've heard it might happen, and I think having the map gen at least somewhat improved before 0.16 is stable might be nice. If not, we still appreciate that you're doing this, I'm just hoping it's still something that might happen.
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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by TOGoS » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:06 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
TOGoS wrote:Elevation in the starting area is generated using a different function than for the rest of the map. This is to guarantee certain characteristics (has a lake, has land, has a patch of every ore), so although it looks a bit odd, I've considered it more a quirk than a bug. That said, I am working on changes for 0.17 that should allow us to get rid of the special case for starting areas. As long as the starting area has already been explored I don't expect this will create discontinuities in migrated maps.
Is there any chance this will be done before 0.16 is stable? I've heard it might happen, and I think having the map gen at least somewhat improved before 0.16 is stable might be nice. If not, we still appreciate that you're doing this, I'm just hoping it's still something that might happen.
Most unlikely! The approach I'm taking involves a pretty massive refactoring of the internals and there are a lot of issues I need to work through before it's ready. But if all goes well this should mean that the workings of the map generator are more transparent, so we should have an easier time making improvements in the future.

What is it that people are most concerned about w.r.t. generator changes? Is it mostly about water and biome placement changes causing sharp edges on the map? The tweaks we're looking at for 0.17 are about ore and biter placement.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Jap2.0 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:44 am

TOGoS wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
TOGoS wrote:Elevation in the starting area is generated using a different function than for the rest of the map. This is to guarantee certain characteristics (has a lake, has land, has a patch of every ore), so although it looks a bit odd, I've considered it more a quirk than a bug. That said, I am working on changes for 0.17 that should allow us to get rid of the special case for starting areas. As long as the starting area has already been explored I don't expect this will create discontinuities in migrated maps.
Is there any chance this will be done before 0.16 is stable? I've heard it might happen, and I think having the map gen at least somewhat improved before 0.16 is stable might be nice. If not, we still appreciate that you're doing this, I'm just hoping it's still something that might happen.
Most unlikely! The approach I'm taking involves a pretty massive refactoring of the internals and there are a lot of issues I need to work through before it's ready. But if all goes well this should mean that the workings of the map generator are more transparent, so we should have an easier time making improvements in the future.

What is it that people are most concerned about w.r.t. generator changes? Is it mostly about water and biome placement changes causing sharp edges on the map? The tweaks we're looking at for 0.17 are about ore and biter placement.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. I haven't played 0.16 extensively yet (maybe ~10 hrs.), so most of what I've heard regarding this is what I've read on the forum - including that it might make it in 0.16. If it takes until 0.17 to do it properly, don't rush it. I believe most people who are most concerned about it are confusing 'stable' with 'working exactly how I want'.
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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by PacifyerGrey » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:57 am

TOGoS wrote:What is it that people are most concerned about w.r.t. generator changes? Is it mostly about water and biome placement changes causing sharp edges on the map? The tweaks we're looking at for 0.17 are about ore and biter placement.
I see three major map gen problems right now:
  • Cliff generation totally busted and is too much inconsistent. It works mostly only in starting area and you might often times not get any cliffs at all.
  • Resource generator places resources too inconsistently. Ore patches should more correspond to game settings. Look at that RSO man there is no need to make it too creative unless you can reach that consistency. Also resource generator ignores water which makes higher water settings often time ruin the game as you just can't find some resources at all especially oil which are generated under the water. I wonder how cool it could be to actually see those resources under the water and being able to landfill that area to start mining them :)
  • Water generation. While sometimes looking cool it still has wrong noise scale. It looks like if you spread the noise like 4 times (decrease frequency) it will net you desired result effectively turning those rivers into seas and puddles into lakes. Right now it tends to generate swamps with many small puddles all around or some kind of water mazes on higher water settings.
So biomes are really unimportant. What IS important however is player getting consistent predictable results on land/water and resources.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by MeduSalem » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:22 pm

TOGoS wrote:What is it that people are most concerned about w.r.t. generator changes? Is it mostly about water and biome placement changes causing sharp edges on the map? The tweaks we're looking at for 0.17 are about ore and biter placement.
  • Cliffs

    Obviously they are buggy... and their spawns are way too random for my taste. I know they are intended to give the feeling of "height differences" but they are spread all about with no rhyme or reason. I would prefer if they were more like Contour cliffs between the various terrain types as vanatteveldt suggested in his thread:
    Contour cliffs
    I am not against having cliffs in the plains as well... but they should be more seldom in comparison to the contours.

    On a side note... if there are already so many cliffs then it would be nice if they would at least have some additional use as well other than just creating artificial choke points... most of the time they are rather just roadblocks in the way of building. Like have a certain chance to spawn infinite ore wells inside some of the cliffs that require special technology to be mined and which yield a much higher output rate than regular surface mining. That would be nice and would encourage people not to bomb them all away just to get rid of them (at least I just tend to bomb them away).
  • Water

    I agree with PacifyerGrey ... the current water generation creates mostly river-like shapes, swamps and marshes also with nor real rhyme or reason... I have not yet seen meaningful lakes in 0.16. If one ramps up the water settings it almost acts like reversing the terrain generation... like water becoming the connected mass and land is sprinkled around like islands. As PacifyerGrey wrote like a Water maze. Makes it kinda hard to find something that doesn't look and play awful.

    This is what I am kinda looking for:
    Map
    It is one of my peaceful maps I have been carrying with me ever since 0.12 or 0.13 to test things out and toy around, so the terrain generation is from back then. So what I am looking for is big lakes that take some time to get around, while also having a lot of land between the lakes to build a large base without having to landfill the crap out of it.
  • Resources

    As people before mentioned... In 0.16 the placement of resources is relatively inconsistent. Even if I manage to find myself a terrain/landscape I like I have big troubles to find Resource settings where I get enough of everything. In a range of 100 map seeds there is maybe like 1-3 that are tolerable. But the other time you get a lot of Iron but almost no Copper, or the other way around. Sometimes you get no oil at all or so far away that you would have to nuke your way through biter infestation... Good luck with that without some of the military stuff that requires oil.
  • Biomes

    Well biomes don't really matter at all currently in the game except for aesthetics.

    Would be different if they had some strategic or tactical influence on the gameplay... like weather conditions or which types of ores you can find or which types of enemies/enemy resistances or something, or how well certain machines perform etc, but since none of that is the case nobody really cares about biomes.

    At least I haven't fiddled around much with the terrain settings, even though I actually like more grass than dirt, sand and desert. It is almost horrible how much dirt, sand and desert there is. Yellowish... Brownish... Reddish... Friggin post-apocalyptic wasteland... too depressing to look at even for my standards. I am always glad if I see a patch of green in between.

    Who thought it would be a good idea to have 3 different colored desert biomes? ... :roll:
    dirt-1.jpg
    dirt-1.jpg (232.53 KiB) Viewed 25384 times
    Pun intended.

    If I can make a suggestion here... if you guys plan on adding another biome in the future... then please nooo more dirt, sand or deserts. Instead some more greener stuff, like jungle or taiga or whatever.
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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Serenity » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:55 am

TOGoS wrote:Is it mostly about water
For me, yes. In earlier versions you could have continents with big seas/oceans between them. Now you either get the described mess of small lakes or swamps. Or if you increase water frequency, you get nothing but snaking land bridges. There is no space to build on outside your starting area. And as mentioned resources get buried partially or completely under water.

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Re: [TOGos][For 0.17][16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by Hoefnix » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:53 pm

TOGoS wrote: What is it that people are most concerned about w.r.t. generator changes? Is it mostly about water and biome placement changes causing sharp edges on the map? The tweaks we're looking at for 0.17 are about ore and biter placement.
The water placement definitely! Especially for big maps it just becomes a swamp as you go further away from spawn. This makes it aweful to design big bases. I prefer the continent style of map generation way more because you can say: On that continent will be my refinery, on that one my smelting, over there a rocket factory. Now you have to create the land first by landfilling a bunch of swamp, and even though I'm Dutch and that should really appeal to me, it doesn't.

And to end on a positive note: Keep up the good work, the game is still amazing :D

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Re: [TOGos] [For 0.17] [0.16.1] Cliffs not spawning, or only spawning in starting zone

Post by daemonworks » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:48 am

One serious pet peeve that I'd love to see specifically addressed is the issue of ribbonworlds and the like. Map settings that are lovely on normal maps can be an exercise in frustration on maps with size limits because the generation doesn't take into account the fact that there's only a tiny slice of world to inhabit. Some basic logic to ensure that there's at least /some/ of every resource (including modded resources) within a reasonable distance would be a great sanity saver.

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