how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

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how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by JapaneseMom »

Screenshot (1238).png
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screenshot above is before I'm connecting my power line from accumulator to my main power production

Screenshot (1239).png
Screenshot (1239).png (1.89 MiB) Viewed 1152 times
while this one above is after I'm connecting my accumulator line to my main power

I dont get it. the satisfaction and production stays the same even after im connecting the both of them. how do I switch between them or satisfy my electricity production, like how it was supposed to? is this really it? or I'm missing something? I'm trying to like satisfy my electricity productions, so I can switch to solar now instead of expanding my steam and boiler
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Deadlock989 »

Accumulators give off a circuit network signal. You can wire them to a power switch to isolate your steam engines as long as demand is being met elsewhere. If the accumulator falls below a threshold, toggle the engines back on. Look up how to make an SR latch (aka a memory toggle) with combinators.
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Serenity »

Steam has priority over accumulators:
https://wiki.factorio.com/Electric_syst ... priorities

You need an SR-Latch:
https://wiki.factorio.com/Tutorial:Circ ... er_version

Instead of using a power switch I simply switch the offshore pumps directly. Water immediately starts to flow and steam kicks in

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by JapaneseMom »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:08 pm
Accumulators give off a circuit network signal. You can wire them to a power switch to isolate your steam engines as long as demand is being met elsewhere. If the accumulator falls below a threshold, toggle the engines back on. Look up how to make an SR latch (aka a memory toggle) with combinators.
okay, so according to the tutorial, I need 2 combinators, which is decider and arithmetic. and Ill have to connect my accumulator to the decider. this is what I dont understand.


as you can see on the image below, I have lots of accumulator. cant I just connect the wires to whatever pole is covering the accumulator instead?
Screenshot (1240).png
Screenshot (1240).png (3.38 MiB) Viewed 1132 times
lastly, based on the tutorial below, I dont understand why he put power switch like this. does that mean Ill have to put power switch to every machine that I have built up to now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEOXGBYR6oM
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Loewchen »

The point is to use the charge signal of an accumulator as input for your circuit logic, how many accumulators you have is irrelevant as they are all charged the same. No idea what connecting the cable to a power pole is supposed to achieve.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Serenity »

Just place a single accumulator near your power plant to read. Then the rest can be somewhere else together with the solar panels.

The power switch is simply to isolate the power plant from the rest of the grid. Why do you now think you need one for every machine? :? And said above there are other ways to turn power plants on and off.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by MEOWMI »

You'll want to first make sure there's only 1 power pole between your steam generators and the rest of your network, then replace that one with the power switch, then finally place an extra accumulator nearby to allow you to build the combinator circuitry all compact near the switch.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

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JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:00 pm
is this really it? or I'm missing something? I'm trying to like satisfy my electricity productions, so I can switch to solar now instead of expanding my steam and boiler
Alright, i'm not sure exactly what you don't get, but this is how i did it. I hope this can shed you a little light. Electronic circuits can be very difficult if you don't get the gist of them. The important thing to remember is the order that power systems will produce electricity. I'm working with 32 bit so i can't speak for nuclear, but it will produce first with Solar, then Steam, and lastly, Accumulators, meaning that even at night steam will produce electricity first, even if your accumulators are at maximum.

SteamPowerCutoff.png
SteamPowerCutoff.png (647.78 KiB) Viewed 914 times
My steam power comes in down the Yellow arrow into a power switch (make sure it's on the correct side). The power switch is what connects/disconnects things. Blue is my accumulator, I have it set to putting out signal P, but default signal is A (the actual accumulator i use is somewhere else in my base attached to this system, i set up this accumulator for demonstration). The accumulator signal goes into the input of the decider so that you can set whatever number (threshold) you want the steam engines to start working again. The output of the decider goes to the input of the power switch and that's what sets your threshold. (Ignore the other decider and light, those are for personal use and are completely unnecessary.)

I suppose it's important to note that the accumulator's signal given off is a percentage of full power, not a straight gigawatt signal.

As for programming things, it's fairly simple. Your decider is reading your % of power from the accumulator. So, if your Accumulator output (A or P, in this case) is < than....lets just say 10, then you will output 1 on signal Green (or whatever color you feel like) to the input of the power switch. Then set the power switch to activate if signal Green is > than 0. If you did everything correctly, then your steam engines should be turning on when your accumulator's power is less than 10%, or whatever threshold you decided to set your decider to.

I hope i explained that correctly, and i hope it helps.
Last edited by TheRangerLOL on Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Serenity »

It's better to use an SR-latch though so you have a hysteresis. Otherwise power constantly flickers on and off at the switching point. With a hysteresis steam power kicks in at 10%, for example, and then you can let it charge the accumulators to 90% and switch off. And it won't turn on again until they are almost empty again.

There are versions with 2 combinators, but I prefer one with 3 as you can easily see and set both thresholds without calculating anything.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

I understand what you mean, but I've never had a problem with flickering as far as power production goes. Typically if the accumulators are draining, they are draining, and they won't suddenly spike and be above "10%" suddenly. Then again i don't have a bajillion boilers as they are a backup system only, as my base is full solar and the steam engines rarely turn on. On the point of SR latches i feel it comes down to personal preference in this case.
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Zavian »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:56 am
I understand what you mean, but I've never had a problem with flickering as far as power production goes.
I also don't bother to use an SR latch for backup power, but I circuit control the offshore pumps, and for me those typically only supply about 10-12 boilers each, so the fluid in the pipes provides some lag and hysteresis. (ie the far boilers wont get their full allocation of water for a few ticks, and when the pumps switch off there is enough water in the boilers and pipes for them to continue running for a few ticks).

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Yoyobuae »

Zavian wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:17 pm
I also don't bother to use an SR latch for backup power, but I circuit control the offshore pumps, and for me those typically only supply about 10-12 boilers each, so the fluid in the pipes provides some lag and hysteresis. (ie the far boilers wont get their full allocation of water for a few ticks, and when the pumps switch off there is enough water in the boilers and pipes for them to continue running for a few ticks).
^This

The solution becomes as simple as a single circuit wire:
Screenshot_2020-10-07_14-49-39.png
Screenshot_2020-10-07_14-49-39.png (179.91 KiB) Viewed 771 times
Don't even need a power switch.


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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by starlinvf »

Something that I don't got explained yet is what the Production and Satisfaction bars are, and how they work.

Satisfaction is the total demand of electricity by the factory, or at least that specific Power Grid. Production is the total production capacity of all power generators on the Grid. Production gets really weird, because Accumulators straddle BOTH those bars under different conditions. Each Accum = 300kw of Production capacity, Solar Panels 60kw, Steam engines 900kw, and Turbines 5.82Mw, all of which get totalled into that number. If anything operates as less then max capacity, you see Current/Total as the value reported.

Secondly. If satisfaction is already at 100%, nearly all Power Production nodes will ONLY PRODUCE whats currently demanded by the factory. So if you have a 10Mw steam engine bank, and you only need 1.2Mw, the Steam engines will (collectively) only generate 1.2Mw to satisfy that demand. This also means their fuel consumption slows with their production rate. So at 1.2Mw, Boilers are only burning fuel at 12% their max possible rate, because the Steam engines aren't demanding much steam.

Satisfaction should, ideally, always be 100%. If it ever drops, it means you don't have enough power production happening, and the whole factory slows down as a result. Depending on how your power is setup, it can completely black out when the things that feed power production (like coal drills and inserters) can't replenish fuel before input reserves are completely used up.

Much of the misunderstanding is due to how accumulators affect those numbers. Accumulators are the lowest priority on the system, but their ability to be both production OR demand makes understanding the Power Window harder. Basically when all other machines are satisfied, the Accumulators will enter charge mode, and demand all surplus production capacity (from non-accumulator nodes) until they are full. If satisfaction falls, indicating production is too low, they'll enter discharge mode and feed into the power grid. The production "total" part of the bar never changes, because its adding up all the items that "can" offer power, regardless of if its currently doing so or not. And if Accumulators are already at max charge, they won't demand power until at least some of it used first. If you remove an accumulator, and then place it back down, you'll see the Production demand jump up in order to charge it.

If you look more closely at the 2 pictures, you'll notice

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:52 pm

The solution becomes as simple as a single circuit wire:
How long does it take the water to boil up to the right temp?
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Yoyobuae »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:29 am
How long does it take the water to boil up to the right temp?
Boilers work instantly once they have water (one tick they get water, the next tick they produce steam at full rate). The only delay would be due to fluid flow, so it takes maybe a few ticks.

But anyway the condition is "A > 50", it's impossible for accumulators to discharge fast enough from 50% down to zero for fluid delay to ever become a problem.
Last edited by Yoyobuae on Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by Koub »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:29 am
Yoyobuae wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:52 pm

The solution becomes as simple as a single circuit wire:
How long does it take the water to boil up to the right temp?
It's immediate. Temp never drops in the boilers. Whatever water enters into the boiler is at 165°C instantly.
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by JapaneseMom »

TheRangerLOL wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:23 am
JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:00 pm
is this really it? or I'm missing something? I'm trying to like satisfy my electricity productions, so I can switch to solar now instead of expanding my steam and boiler
Alright, i'm not sure exactly what you don't get, but this is how i did it. I hope this can shed you a little light. Electronic circuits can be very difficult if you don't get the gist of them. The important thing to remember is the order that power systems will produce electricity. I'm working with 32 bit so i can't speak for nuclear, but it will produce first with Solar, then Steam, and lastly, Accumulators, meaning that even at night steam will produce electricity first, even if your accumulators are at maximum.


SteamPowerCutoff.png

My steam power comes in down the Yellow arrow into a power switch (make sure it's on the correct side). The power switch is what connects/disconnects things. Blue is my accumulator, I have it set to putting out signal P, but default signal is A (the actual accumulator i use is somewhere else in my base attached to this system, i set up this accumulator for demonstration). The accumulator signal goes into the input of the decider so that you can set whatever number (threshold) you want the steam engines to start working again. The output of the decider goes to the input of the power switch and that's what sets your threshold. (Ignore the other decider and light, those are for personal use and are completely unnecessary.)

I suppose it's important to note that the accumulator's signal given off is a percentage of full power, not a straight gigawatt signal.

As for programming things, it's fairly simple. Your decider is reading your % of power from the accumulator. So, if your Accumulator output (A or P, in this case) is < than....lets just say 10, then you will output 1 on signal Green (or whatever color you feel like) to the input of the power switch. Then set the power switch to activate if signal Green is > than 0. If you did everything correctly, then your steam engines should be turning on when your accumulator's power is less than 10%, or whatever threshold you decided to set your decider to.

I hope i explained that correctly, and i hope it helps.
yes, the connecting and switching of power supply is what I dont understand
Screenshot (1240).png
Screenshot (1240).png (3.38 MiB) Viewed 521 times
you see, on my setup, I have a bunch of accumulator. and most of the tutorial that I have watched only connect 1 accumulator to bunch of steam and boiler. what I dont understand is, can I connect the cable from electric pole (means im going to create 1 extra pole that will connect every accumulator of mine) to switch/circuit? because if not, then I'm not sure how to connect every accumulator of mine with cable, then connect to combiner or decider thingy because it sounds tedious and complicated

its hard to convey what I really means, but basically can I connect the wire from the electric pole that covered the whole area with accumulator to whatever circuit thingy instead of connect accumulator 1 by 1 to circuit network?
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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by disentius »

Yes, you can. :)

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Any single accumulator will output an “A” signal that represents the total accumulator charge of ALL the accumulators that are connected to the same power grid. So you only need one accumulator and one circuit wire to read and therefore control your power. (Of course more circuit wires may be required to control the various devices.) But strictly speaking it can be done with a single wire. As is demonstrated above.

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Re: how do I switch between accumulator and steam/coal based machine?

Post by TheRangerLOL »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:35 am
its hard to convey what I really means,
I'm not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say either :lol:
but basically can I connect the wire from the electric pole that covered the whole area with accumulator to whatever circuit thingy instead of connect accumulator 1 by 1 to circuit network?
MassiveDynamic wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:28 pm
Any single accumulator will output an “A” signal that represents the total accumulator charge of ALL the accumulators that are connected to the same power grid. So you only need one accumulator and one circuit wire to read and therefore control your power. (Of course more circuit wires may be required to control the various devices.) But strictly speaking it can be done with a single wire. As is demonstrated above.
MassiveDynamic explains it pretty well, but pretty much it's like this: Each accumulator puts out a percentage signal on A whenever you connect it. If you connect two accumulators, when fully charged your signal will be showing 200, because it will add up the two 100%s you have connected. Since all your accumulators charge at the same rate, and at the same time, you only need to connect one of them to get a read on your entire power grid's charge level.
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