needs advice and help regarding my train setup

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JapaneseMom
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needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

Hello

I have decided to expand my base by getting resources from further places and already build a train setup. I have tried the in game training regarding rail signals, and even experiment in game on using rail signals, but im still confuse on what does it do and if its doable in my current setup

I need some advice or help regarding this setup. is this optimal and future proof? what should I improve if ever im going to add more train in the future? whats lacking? is using chain on everything a good idea?

as you can see on attach image, i decided to use chain on everything, because i feel like chain is much more smarter in deciding things than stop signals. as you can see, it will automatically stop and running depending on the availability of the rail, even if its from far away
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below are the setup where i used rail signal to tell the train that there might be train coming up in front, so this is how i setup the rail signals. but as you can see, there is nothing in front of the train, and i have removed the second train just to prove the problems. the way i understand in game tutorial, "rail signal is used to tell the train that the spaces in front might get occupied by other train, so please stop there until its all clear." but when i apply it in my base, it seems to work differently. not sure if my understanding of rail signal or me using it wrong, or im misplacing the rail signal
Screenshot (1064).png
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SoShootMe
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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by SoShootMe »

The primary benefits of chain signals (when used correctly) are to improve throughput at junctions and avoid the risk of deadlock.

I found Factorio Train Automation very useful when I first wanted to set up a "proper" railway network and highly recommend reading it.

Serenity
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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Serenity »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:03 pm
because i feel like chain is much more smarter in deciding things than stop signals.
They both have their uses. Also single and dual track are fundamentally different. In a single track system you may use chain signals almost everywhere. That's not the case in a dual track system where you want many trains on the tracks at the same time. Even in one direction.
Last edited by Serenity on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nosferatu
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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Nosferatu »

You sent the second train south as far as I can see in the minimap. Are there any signals between the Screenshotted area and down there? I guess no and that's the first problem.

Suggestion: place a normal signal on every entrance and exit of your loops at the stations.
Remove all other signals.

That should give you a working start setup

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

Nosferatu wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:40 pm
Suggestion: place a normal signal on every entrance and exit of your loops at the stations.
Remove all other signals.

That should give you a working start setup
so something like this? I haven't run my second train, so I'm not sure if my placement is correct/working or not
rock pickup.png
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coal drop off.png
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dual.png
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dual entrance.png
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coal pick up.png
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otw.png
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zoom out view.png
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2 rail signals.png
2 rail signals.png (4.15 MiB) Viewed 201 times

JapaneseMom
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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

SoShootMe wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:16 pm
The primary benefits of chain signals (when used correctly) are to improve throughput at junctions and avoid the risk of deadlock.

I found Factorio Train Automation very useful when I first wanted to set up a "proper" railway network and highly recommend reading it.
I have also read this, but its the same thing, I get a deadlock whenever I'm using rail signals instead of chain

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

I take back my words. its finally deadlock once I run it without stopping
Screenshot (1077).png
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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Nosferatu »

I meant like this:
Stationarea.png
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Never place normal signals in areas where trains come from both directions. It's only a matter of time till they deadlock

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Theikkru »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:17 pm
I take back my words. its finally deadlock once I run it without stopping[...]
You're having problems because you're trying to run multiple trains on a single two-way track. Most rules and tutorials about rail building focus on dual one-way track. The methods for signalling the two systems are different:
tracksig.png
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Example save file:
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JapaneseMom
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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

Theikkru wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:29 pm
You're having problems because you're trying to run multiple trains on a single two-way track. Most rules and tutorials about rail building focus on dual one-way track. The methods for signalling the two systems are different:
tracksig.png
Example save file:
so what should I do? should I create another rail road for the train coming from the east to exit?

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Theikkru »

The simplest way is to start using dual one-way track (like I showed on the right) everywhere. Using single two-way track (like on the left) is cheaper to build, but you need to understand how signals work very well to use it correctly.

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Amarula »

To allow for expansion, I would suggest changing from your current 2-way track, to two 1-way tracks. Getting rail signals right is pretty tricky, but I have found the following works in most cases:
  • If you want a train to stop to load or unload, make a siding off the main track. Put signals on both the siding and the main line at the entrance and the exit of the siding. I have a personal transport train to get around my base, and I have dedicated sidings all over that are just for me to park my train, so I don't block regular traffic.
  • Use regular signals to separate each track into segments; each segment should be at least as long as your normal train, so if the train stops it will fit in the segment and not block two or more segments.
  • Use chain signals at all entrances to an intersection, to keep trains from blocking the intersection, with a normal signal at each exit so as soon as a train leaves the intersection, it opens up to other trains. NB: I don't consider a siding merging back on to the main line to be an intersection so I don't use a chain signal there.
Good luck, have fun, and don't stand on the tracks! :)

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Serenity »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:33 pm
so what should I do? should I create another rail road for the train coming from the east to exit?
Here is a video of someone expanding a single rail line to a dual track system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkI-qbTZoRY&t=6s

He starts by deconstructing the previous track, but that wasn't really necessary. It's easily possible to start with one track for a single train and then when you get multiple trains turn it into dual track

The next episode is relevant too and covers signals as they relate to junctions. You still need to understand signals for this, but you only need to internalize one or two rules

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

Theikkru wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:42 pm
The simplest way is to start using dual one-way track (like I showed on the right) everywhere. Using single two-way track (like on the left) is cheaper to build, but you need to understand how signals work very well to use it correctly.
I will try to redo it again like you said. the reason why I use dual one-way track not because I'm trying to save resources but because I'm trying to save spaces. both will have to stop on the same place at some point (which is east, as you can see on the map, thats where my main base is) so why not let them run on the same track. something like that

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

Amarula wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:52 pm
To allow for expansion, I would suggest changing from your current 2-way track, to two 1-way tracks. Getting rail signals right is pretty tricky, but I have found the following works in most cases:
  • Use chain signals at all entrances to an intersection, to keep trains from blocking the intersection, with a normal signal at each exit so as soon as a train leaves the intersection, it opens up to other trains. NB: I don't consider a siding merging back on to the main line to be an intersection so I don't use a chain signal there.
Good luck, have fun, and don't stand on the tracks! :)
I have tried this rule of thumb "chain signal on the way in and rail signal on the way out" but it seems like rail signal just works weirdly compare to chain. whenever I start using rail, its just stop working in general, but it works flawlessly with chain signal setup. but yes, there might be a slight delay since its a single two-way track

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Theikkru »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:07 pm
I have tried this rule of thumb "chain signal on the way in and rail signal on the way out" but it seems like rail signal just works weirdly compare to chain.[...]
The most reliable rule is:
Use rail signals before a section of track that trains are allowed to stop on (such as a station or siding). Use chain signals before any sections of track you don't want trains to stop on (such as intersections, or two-way track).
When a train is running on a track, it looks at the signals on its right side, so make sure trains encounter the correct type of signal on the right side before entering the section of track you want to control.

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

Theikkru wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:17 pm
The most reliable rule is:
Use rail signals before a section of track that trains are allowed to stop on (such as a station or siding). Use chain signals before any sections of track you don't want trains to stop on (such as intersections, or two-way track).
wait, use rail signal on station? thats the first time i heard it

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by Theikkru »

JapaneseMom wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:25 pm
wait, use rail signal on station? thats the first time i heard it
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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by JapaneseMom »

Theikkru wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:46 pm
rails.png
thank you for the explanation, will try to apply this on my train setup later

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Re: needs advice and help regarding my train setup

Post by mmmPI »

I would advise in general for train to not start too big because it takes time to make modifications and test new things and not too complicated so that you can learn basic scheme and repeat, scale, combine, improve them later.

The most simple way is to not use signal at all, make 1 track with a loading station at one end, and unloading at the other end. And use what is often refered as LCL train, meaning 1 Cargo wagon in the middle of 2 Locomotive, facing each direction.

I think the next step is to have the first basic junction between 2 of the lane described earlier, a X junction, and experiment with signals at this stage. At this point there is few things that you need to think of, avoiding collision, avoiding train blocking the intersection. For this you will need signals, each lane would be described as a "1 track 2 way lane".

Then in terms of complexity i think comes the use of loops. It allow you to use LC or LCC or LCCC trains, meaning 1 Locomotive, followed by 1 or more wagons. This imply a system of signals for the first time , and not just reasonning in terms of 1 junction here, another one here. You have tracks that are one-way, the loops themselves and you may also have some that are 2-way, the rail connecting them. You need to understand how to use signals to do this, it's not just avoiding problems, it's creating a rule. You will realize that there are "types" of junction that you repeat a lot, for example the loop entrance. You can fiddle and experiment until you understand how to make one, or find it on tutorial, then repeat where you need it. It allow for a small/medium size network.

The main advantage is that you can use multiple trains following each others in loops. The main drawback is that it becomes difficult to signals to prevent them from entering the same track by both end ( main cause of deadlock ).but once you get it, you have done the most difficult imo.

The next step is the 2 parralel track, each of them one-way. similar to road for car. Which is in fact a very elongated loop. The same rules for signaling apply, it's a bit less complicated to signal to avoid the frontal deadlock because each track is only 1 way. The difficulty instead becomes understanding how to signal the junctions because they become more complex, a simple X junction has now 4 entrance AND 4 exit. Those you can easily find example on the internet because they are the most used and many design exist.

You can think of cars on the road as a reference. The main reason you use this is for higher throughput. And same as for car, dual 1 way track can be doubled, to 2 lanes or 4 lanes, or 8 lanes. Similar to highway it makes the junction more and more complex. and throughput higher and higher.

It's tempting to jump directly to this stage, because it can be very modular. Most players i saw on multiplayer uses this dual one-way track system as their first and only type of train network, they don't have to "convert" or "retrofit" their train system. It becomes the simplest way to do once you are used to it and it makes the 1track 2way seems complex and error-prone. When it's a server with many players that want to make a big base, or someone that wants to launch many rockets sometimes they can do 4 lane right at the start, 2 in each way.

Also there are different ways/preferences for signals. The same train behaviour can be achieved with different signal placement but sometimes different signals makes trains have different behaviors. It is often less problematic to have too many signals, that occurs frequently it can have no consequences at all, but in specific part if you forget just 1 it can break the system by making a track one way instead of 2 or the opposite. By doing mistakes we learn :)

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