requesting a clever way to store steam

Don't know how to use a machine? Looking for efficient setups? Stuck in a mission?
Post Reply
varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

Is there a way to store steam only when excess steam is produced (more steam than for the turbines),
I want to enable storage when there is excess steam, and use it after nuclear fuel is completed
if there is no excess steam , it should not store at all

Any ideas ?

MassiveDynamic
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:44 pm
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Since fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.

User avatar
planetmaker
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:30 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by planetmaker »

If you just want a nuclear reactor which does not run all time, but just when needed: attach steam tanks to the pipes and/or turbines - the excess steam will be stored when there's too much and consumed when there's too little. You just have to make sure via circuit network that that no new fuel is inserted as long as steam level in the tanks is above a certain threshold (and when inserted, that only one fuel cell is inserted)

varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

MassiveDynamic wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pm
Since fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
Thanks for the idea ,
i tried that , but however, that resulted in pump operating in pulse. and when the steam has to be delivered , that also delivering in pulse manner (i hope you understood)
so, think, i have to use combinators to run if steam is between say 5k to 20k.
Last edited by varundevan on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

planetmaker wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:21 pm
If you just want a nuclear reactor which does not run all time, but just when needed: attach steam tanks to the pipes and/or turbines - the excess steam will be stored when there's too much and consumed when there's too little. You just have to make sure via circuit network that that no new fuel is inserted as long as steam level in the tanks is above a certain threshold (and when inserted, that only one fuel cell is inserted)
i have achieved exactly what you have mentioned.
but since the steam equalizes , the tank requires steam until reaches equilibrium, and reduces efficiency of the turbines.
its not a big deal , just wanted to optimize.
this is like a big deal to me than the rocket :D :D :D ( i have sent only 1 rocket btw)

astroshak
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 9:59 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by astroshak »

You have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...

1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.

2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.

varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

astroshak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 am
You have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...

1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.

2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
Thanks for the idea,
The first option looks simple, but i have tried that (putting tanks at the end of turbines) , however when operating ,i think the algorithm takes the whole as like a single pipe line, the turbine will not run at full capacity until equilibrium is reached. :?

For the second option , i am yet to try exactly like you said. But i have tried putting pumps to the turbines with tanks and heat exchanges at the pumps input. This has a problem too, when reaching the near full capacity of power output, the electricity to the pump decreases and the pump is pumping less . this hinders the flow of steam to the turbines.

appreciate your interest
we need a electronic check valve and a pressure sensor. I think i am taking it too far.. :D :D
Last edited by varundevan on Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

ptx0
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:16 pm
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by ptx0 »

varundevan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:35 pm
MassiveDynamic wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pm
Since fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
Thanks for the idea ,
i tried that , but however, that resulted in pump operating in pulse. and when the steam has to be delivered , that also delivering in pulse manner (i hope you understood)
so, think, i have to use combinators to run if steam is between say 5k to 20k.

you need hysteresis on the combinator circuit using a clock so that its engagement does not flutter, but instead holds on between two values. the wiki has info on this.
If you want to buy me a beer for my work on eduran's LTN Tracker, send me a private message.

varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

ptx0 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:29 am
varundevan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:35 pm
MassiveDynamic wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pm
Since fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
Thanks for the idea ,
i tried that , but however, that resulted in pump operating in pulse. and when the steam has to be delivered , that also delivering in pulse manner (i hope you understood)
so, think, i have to use combinators to run if steam is between say 5k to 20k.

you need hysteresis on the combinator circuit using a clock so that its engagement does not flutter, but instead holds on between two values. the wiki has info on this.
i have not yet got to a that level of using combinators , just simple if conditions. I will take a look, thanks for the information. It would be more helpful , if you could share the link.

User avatar
planetmaker
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:30 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by planetmaker »

You're looking for an RS-latch. There's a design step-by-step description on one example in the circuit network cookbook in the wiki....

varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

planetmaker wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:17 am
You're looking for an RS-latch. There's a design step-by-step description on one example in the circuit network cookbook in the wiki....
Thank you for the information , let me check and try it out

Nemo4809
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:49 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by Nemo4809 »

Pumps seem complicated. I just attach as many tanks I can find space for and calculate the min steam level such that if a fuel cell is inserted and no power is consumed, I just get full tanks.

The tanks will never empty but I will never have wasted heat.

As for the circuit to control the fuel insertion ...

https://youtu.be/CRsTHPgwTzY

No combinators. Works great for me - I have one empty-cell-removing inserter control all the fuel cell inserters.

MassiveDynamic
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:44 pm
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by MassiveDynamic »

varundevan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:35 pm
MassiveDynamic wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pm
Since fluid in tanks equalizes across connected tanks, add two tanks on the end of your steam pipes, then a pump to a third tank. Use a red or green wire connected from the second tank to the pump and set the pump to operate when steam is greater than “x”. Where x is whatever value you decide indicates extra steam.
The third tank will store excess steam.
Here is a video on SR latch
https://youtu.be/AIYma_dtEUo

User avatar
disentius
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 3:17 pm
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by disentius »

You can use this switch:
viewtopic.php?f=193&t=32432

The way fluids and heat pipes work, means you want to not split inputs/outputs into multiple pipe segments. One way to achieve this is using more generators.
Concept setup in editor mode, with Waterfill and Santa's Nixie tubes for display.

Configured the the electric energy interface to drain 474MW from the max 480 MW this setup produces.
Min steam of is sufficient to keep full power until the heat pipes are back at >501 degrees again.
Nuclear setup concept.png
Nuclear setup concept.png (1.22 MiB) Viewed 120 times
[Edit] Oops, forgot some green wires... corrected.
[Edit2] After some additional testing, i recommend setting the steam value in the combinator to -900K, and the T(rigger) value to 100K, for an effective on/of range of 800K-1000K



I usually never bother minimizing fuel usage in my nuclear setups. More than enough Uranium available, and it eliminates tanks and circuit network shenanigans. :)

astroshak
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 9:59 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by astroshak »

varundevan wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:58 am
astroshak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 am
You have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...

1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.

2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
Thanks for the idea,
The first option looks simple, but i have tried that (putting tanks at the end of turbines) , however when operating ,i think the algorithm takes the whole as like a single pipe line, the turbine will not run at full capacity until equilibrium is reached. :?

For the second option , i am yet to try exactly like you said. But i have tried putting pumps to the turbines with tanks and heat exchanges at the pumps input. This has a problem too, when reaching the near full capacity of power output, the electricity to the pump decreases and the pump is pumping less . this hinders the flow of steam to the turbines.

appreciate your interest
we need a electronic check valve and a pressure sensor. I think i am taking it too far.. :D :D
There is a solution to that electrical problem you run into there ... though you may not like it much.

Have those pumps (and, really, the inserters for the reactors) be on their own power grid. Solar might be the simplest thing, but you could do this by having as couple of the turbines separated from the network the rest are on, and only powering the inserters/pumps. If they have their own, separate power supply, that is maintained sufficiently (its not like pumps and inserters really use all that much power individually anyway) then even if the rest of the power plant is not meeting its demands, at least the pumps won’t be a problem.

The other solution would be to math out the power demands of whatever you’re building, and making sure that you add more reactors before adding to the power demand. Ideally, you would do this anyway, but speaking from personal experience I know I don’t. If power demand is always met, you will not run into the problem of those pumps not functioning properly.

My nuclear BP’s are for one side of a 2x4 reactor, and they are chain-able, such that I can keep laying them next to one another for as long and as far as I need to. Thinking about it now, though, I think I will add in these innovations to them (I don’t usually bother to store the steam, but playing around with that could be fun, but using solar for the inserters and pumps is not part of my own BP’s). As well as another innovation from another nuclear BP thread a couple months back that I never got around to incorporating.

varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

disentius wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:28 pm
You can use this switch:
viewtopic.php?f=193&t=32432

The way fluids and heat pipes work, means you want to not split inputs/outputs into multiple pipe segments. One way to achieve this is using more generators.
Concept setup in editor mode, with Waterfill and Santa's Nixie tubes for display.

Configured the the electric energy interface to drain 474MW from the max 480 MW this setup produces.
Min steam of is sufficient to keep full power until the heat pipes are back at >501 degrees again.

Nuclear setup concept.png

[Edit] Oops, forgot some green wires... corrected.
[Edit2] After some additional testing, i recommend setting the steam value in the combinator to -900K, and the T(rigger) value to 100K, for an effective on/of range of 800K-1000K



I usually never bother minimizing fuel usage in my nuclear setups. More than enough Uranium available, and it eliminates tanks and circuit network shenanigans. :)
Thanks for sharing , i have not used a hysteresis before, let me try it out
Edit 1 : well , what is the electric energy interface, how to use that ( well to rephrase , how to enable editor mode)
Last edited by varundevan on Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

varundevan
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:41 am
Contact:

Re: requesting a clever way to store steam

Post by varundevan »

astroshak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:20 pm
varundevan wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:58 am
astroshak wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 am
You have two choices, I think, to achieve what you want ...

1 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks downstream of the Steam Turbines. Steam they don’t need is passed through, and you collect it in those tanks at the end. When the reactors run out of heat, you still ahve the steam, and can delay inputting more fuel until this steam will just about run out when the reactors finish heating up and generating steam again.

2 : put a bunch of Storage Tanks, separated by pumps, between the heat exchangers and the turbine generators. Steam gets pumped through the tanks, and goes into the turbine generators. Steam they don’t need is backpressured to stay in the storage tanks until needed. This functions identically to putting them after the turbines, but keeps pump pressure on the turbines at all times, until the steam runs out. Rather than guesstimating how much steam you need to ensure no loss of power while the reactors heat back up, simply connect to a storage tank before the last tank. You have to power the pumps, but in exchange, you don’t have that strange “partial filled = partial pressure” behavior that you do with the tanks at the back end.
Thanks for the idea,
The first option looks simple, but i have tried that (putting tanks at the end of turbines) , however when operating ,i think the algorithm takes the whole as like a single pipe line, the turbine will not run at full capacity until equilibrium is reached. :?

For the second option , i am yet to try exactly like you said. But i have tried putting pumps to the turbines with tanks and heat exchanges at the pumps input. This has a problem too, when reaching the near full capacity of power output, the electricity to the pump decreases and the pump is pumping less . this hinders the flow of steam to the turbines.

appreciate your interest
we need a electronic check valve and a pressure sensor. I think i am taking it too far.. :D :D
There is a solution to that electrical problem you run into there ... though you may not like it much.

Have those pumps (and, really, the inserters for the reactors) be on their own power grid. Solar might be the simplest thing, but you could do this by having as couple of the turbines separated from the network the rest are on, and only powering the inserters/pumps. If they have their own, separate power supply, that is maintained sufficiently (its not like pumps and inserters really use all that much power individually anyway) then even if the rest of the power plant is not meeting its demands, at least the pumps won’t be a problem.

The other solution would be to math out the power demands of whatever you’re building, and making sure that you add more reactors before adding to the power demand. Ideally, you would do this anyway, but speaking from personal experience I know I don’t. If power demand is always met, you will not run into the problem of those pumps not functioning properly.

My nuclear BP’s are for one side of a 2x4 reactor, and they are chain-able, such that I can keep laying them next to one another for as long and as far as I need to. Thinking about it now, though, I think I will add in these innovations to them (I don’t usually bother to store the steam, but playing around with that could be fun, but using solar for the inserters and pumps is not part of my own BP’s). As well as another innovation from another nuclear BP thread a couple months back that I never got around to incorporating.
i agree, that we most likely have power more than requirement , and pumps will not be a problem. Just that, my interest revolving around different layouts and build the most efficient that optimizes and outputs full power.

Post Reply

Return to “Gameplay Help”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users