How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

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How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by eBagger »

I’m getting distraught in my first playthrough (on peaceful mode). I’ve researched alot, just finished researching power armor mk2, nuclear, and was going to research kovarex eneichment before mining uranium and learning nuclear. I thought after advanced logistics and requester chests would solve my problems (I literally carried yellow science to my labs). But new problem after new problem keeps arising.

1. I thought my first train network was functioning fine but as I use more material the trains keep crashing and getting stuck, and a few signals here and there aint gonna fix it, it needs to be redone and simplified.

2. My starter base where I get all my stuff from all ran out of resources at the same time. I patched it rerouting resources from my new train-fed bus, and its hemorrhaging those resources and wonky.

3. Underestimated how much stuff I’d need and bus is too small anyway even when trains aren’t crashing every few minutes.

How often do players get overwhelmed later in the game, and then use robotics to completely dismantle their base and start over more organized? Like lay out a bunch of storage chests, select the entire factory, and dismantle that thing?

The only thing I’d probably keep is the train dropoff station and the advanced oil cracking setup I finally got working smoothly. But with resources running thin, distant spaghetti of a mall that looks like its on its last legs fixed with bandaids and ducktape.

I wanna start fresh with the principles I’ve learned. Sound like a plan?

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by mmmPI »

I would say it's easier/faster to build aside the existing thing with robots than to replace everything. Just go on exile aside and rebuild from what can be salvaged of the previous base using robots.


But restarting a game is also good, as you will be doing everything 'faster' than the previous time, especially when you still discover the game, you restart with more knowledge and ideas about the scale at which you felt limited so that the next factory you build has more room for expansion.

For example one advice is to only build on 1 side of the bus, this way you can always add lane to it on the other side when you realize you need more belts of something. That stays true even for veteran player that play with new mods.


It took me 5 or 6 restart of the game focused only on trains to feel like i could make a rail network that would have no problem. But i still went to watch some tutorial and explanation afterward when i had a problem :).

The goal of the game is to launch 1 rocket, but there are also infinite research that require infinite launch of rockets, it doesn't require the same planning if you go for one or the other or if you do not have a clear idea/strategy and just having fun :)

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by realcyberleon »

This is my experience from deconstructing and rebuilding:
Once you start deconstructing, your whole factory stops working. Like, totally. Your new factory will only start working (at least the final products) once the whole thing is set up ... PERFECTLY. During all that time you are producing / researching as good as NOTHING. This feels EXTREMELY frustrating.

So. Best is, take a squad of 20 Laserspiders (1 Fusion reactor, 3 shields, 3 lasers, 2 legs, 2 mk2 batteries in each), ctrl click with each remote spider control of each of these spiders onto your main spider to let them follow it (different spider colors help), put the remote controls into the trunk of your main spider alongside 700 nukes, just keep your main spider (no lasers in it, 3 legs instead.) remote control in your inventory (the lasers are in your MK2 Armor, together with your repairbots. Take a spider full of repairkits with ya. No legs in here.). Fill the spiders with traintracks, conveyor belts, assemblers, inserters and whatever-the-f-you want and GO. ON. A. HIKE. Start a new base further out. Bang, research from your old base is still coming in all the time. Just make certain that your old base is selfrepairing and airtight before you leave. You dont want to have to head back.

Oh, and having 1 stack of everything on you or in the spiders to be able to place ghost buildings of everything wherever you want from any position is a BIG help, as well as having another fusion reactor to reload energy in your main spider faster (shift or control click it to fast install/uninstall legs/reactor in your main spider).


Edit: ok I reread your title, you wrote mid to endgame, so no spiders I guess, lol - but the idea to go somewhere else instead of recycling the old build remains.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by mrvn »

Deconstructing everything a) takes awfully long, b) stops everything dead, c) where are you going to store everything? And then when you rebuild you will run out of simple stuff like transport belts and have no factory to build them for you. Or even Iron plates wit no smelter left to make more. It's far better to do this in parts.

First what's up with your trains? They should never ever crash. Crashing trains means you have multiple trains in a segment without any signals to begin with. Make sure that you have a signal at every train stop. That way trains won't leave the stop and crash into other trains ever. After that fix the signals so you have no deadlocks. You might have to remove all the signals (not the ones at the train stops) and start over. Search the forums for how to place signals correctly.

Then when you have trains working start mining ores somewhere else and ship them to the started base. You said all the resources there are gone so there should be place to unload the ore where the miners used to be and fill the existing smelters.

Next go somewhere a bit from your base and build a new smelter with a train stop for ore, fuel and plates. Copy that 3 times to make a iron plate, copper plate, steel plate and stone brick smelter. Add more copies as needed. Now you can stop shipping ores to the starter base, wait for the starter smelter to run dry, remove them and then ship in plates. You can keep going that way by replacing green circuit boards next.

You can also go at it from the other way. Like build a train station for research labs. Then remove the labs at the starter base and load the science packs onto trains instead. Then you can move the science pack production out of the base color by color.

The important bit is to first build the new sub-factory before deconstructing the old one. That way everything keeps on working with minimal disruptions.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by eBagger »

mmmPI wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:52 pm
I would say it's easier/faster to build aside the existing thing with robots than to replace everything. Just go on exile aside and rebuild from what can be salvaged of the previous base using robots.


But restarting a game is also good, as you will be doing everything 'faster' than the previous time, especially when you still discover the game, you restart with more knowledge and ideas about the scale at which you felt limited so that the next factory you build has more room for expansion.

For example one advice is to only build on 1 side of the bus, this way you can always add lane to it on the other side when you realize you need more belts of something. That stays true even for veteran player that play with new mods.


It took me 5 or 6 restart of the game focused only on trains to feel like i could make a rail network that would have no problem. But i still went to watch some tutorial and explanation afterward when i had a problem :).

The goal of the game is to launch 1 rocket, but there are also infinite research that require infinite launch of rockets, it doesn't require the same planning if you go for one or the other or if you do not have a clear idea/strategy and just having fun :)
Yeahh the trains are easy enough to grasp the concept....not as easy to apply. I thought I designed some sleek network, where loops gave way to small loops, and all shared a single line, and well place signals would allow them to all wait until the line back is clear to go.....well as soon as demand ramped up and they all started going, crashes and non stop blocking started up. Its a disaster. And I spent a solid 3 hours designing and laying it out. Meanwhile my little 2 headed locomotive I set down as a trial is chugging along perfectly....gotta keep it simple until I get some more time under my belt.

But yeah I'm not talking about restarting from the start, I'm talking deconstructing my entire base, and having my bots put everything in storage chests so I re-use it all in a better layout.
realcyberleon wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:45 pm
This is my experience from deconstructing and rebuilding:
Once you start deconstructing, your whole factory stops working. Like, totally. Your new factory will only start working (at least the final products) once the whole thing is set up ... PERFECTLY. During all that time you are producing / researching as good as NOTHING. This feels EXTREMELY frustrating.

So. Best is, take a squad of 20 Laserspiders (1 Fusion reactor, 3 shields, 3 lasers, 2 legs, 2 mk2 batteries in each), ctrl click with each remote spider control of each of these spiders onto your main spider to let them follow it (different spider colors help), put the remote controls into the trunk of your main spider alongside 700 nukes, just keep your main spider (no lasers in it, 3 legs instead.) remote control in your inventory (the lasers are in your MK2 Armor, together with your repairbots. Take a spider full of repairkits with ya. No legs in here.). Fill the spiders with traintracks, conveyor belts, assemblers, inserters and whatever-the-f-you want and GO. ON. A. HIKE. Start a new base further out. Bang, research from your old base is still coming in all the time. Just make certain that your old base is selfrepairing and airtight before you leave. You dont want to have to head back.

Oh, and having 1 stack of everything on you or in the spiders to be able to place ghost buildings of everything wherever you want from any position is a BIG help, as well as having another fusion reactor to reload energy in your main spider faster (shift or control click it to fast install/uninstall legs/reactor in your main spider).


Edit: ok I reread your title, you wrote mid to endgame, so no spiders I guess, lol - but the idea to go somewhere else instead of recycling the old build remains.
This is my only worry, I feel like I have plenty of crap, but not producing anything at all is gonna be stressful as well.
mrvn wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:35 am
Deconstructing everything a) takes awfully long, b) stops everything dead, c) where are you going to store everything? And then when you rebuild you will run out of simple stuff like transport belts and have no factory to build them for you. Or even Iron plates wit no smelter left to make more. It's far better to do this in parts.

First what's up with your trains? They should never ever crash. Crashing trains means you have multiple trains in a segment without any signals to begin with. Make sure that you have a signal at every train stop. That way trains won't leave the stop and crash into other trains ever. After that fix the signals so you have no deadlocks. You might have to remove all the signals (not the ones at the train stops) and start over. Search the forums for how to place signals correctly.

Then when you have trains working start mining ores somewhere else and ship them to the started base. You said all the resources there are gone so there should be place to unload the ore where the miners used to be and fill the existing smelters.

Next go somewhere a bit from your base and build a new smelter with a train stop for ore, fuel and plates. Copy that 3 times to make a iron plate, copper plate, steel plate and stone brick smelter. Add more copies as needed. Now you can stop shipping ores to the starter base, wait for the starter smelter to run dry, remove them and then ship in plates. You can keep going that way by replacing green circuit boards next.

You can also go at it from the other way. Like build a train station for research labs. Then remove the labs at the starter base and load the science packs onto trains instead. Then you can move the science pack production out of the base color by color.

The important bit is to first build the new sub-factory before deconstructing the old one. That way everything keeps on working with minimal disruptions.
Would it really take that long if I placed like 50 storage chests and selected the entire base and said to deconstruct? I have a few hundred bots of each type.
Yeah I dunno how to describe the train problem without pictures, and even the pictures won't describe because theres alot of what I had planned just not functioning or implemented yet (And it won't be at this rate.)

Here lets see. This won't tell much, but you'll probably be able to tell how new I am at this.

Image

Image

Image

See that little rest area where the underground belts are before the smelters? Yeah I just saw that used on alot of designs and Imkibitz videos, and thought it was a good idea, but I dunno how to use it. Like how the fuck are trains supposed to know to go there to wait for other ones? Theres no fucking option for that. Its just sat there like a fucking waste of space pissing me off.

Image

Always problems here, and if it looks like there are unnecessary signals, I can't place anything without "No path" for all the fucking trains. And I always seem to have to place a signal on the opposite side of a chain signal or sure enough no path, I'm guessing because its one way and it needs to see a way back.

Image

Ahh here we have a problem in action in the time I started up to take the pictures. Yeah I'm getting ready to demolish this whole fucking railway its pissing me off.

Image

And this is the only train that works fine, separate from the clusterfuck, just 2 locomotives going back and forth. My first attempt at oil refineries and chemical plants too. The only one close to my base only had like 2 little oil spots so I figured I'd make that strictly sulfur based, and use plastic for my first attempt at transporting oil.

Anyway, thats the bullshit I'm working with. Trains have made me angrier than anything else in this game. Because I get the concept, I've watched every tutorial, and then when I go to place things *immediately red for no reason* *No path* *any other problem you can imagine*

Fuck it I'm not even going to pick up the railway I'm going to fucking shoot rockets at it until it dies.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by eBagger »

Oh good news, apparently my bots have just decided they don't want to fucking help re supply my shit anymore. I have my supply chests stocked full of all of these items and they were on point, they seem to have just stopped giving a shit.

Sure enough I put some trash in my trash slots and 50 of em flew over to take it, why aren't they bringing me my shit?

Image

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by eBagger »

Nevermind, I see logistics robots and auto trash was disabled......but I sure as hell didn't disable it. I guess its just one of those things that decided to fuck with me.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by mmmPI »

eBagger wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 am

Would it really take that long if I placed like 50 storage chests and selected the entire base and said to deconstruct? I have a few hundred bots of each type.

Yes, because you would cut power line , and robot would no longer charge and work, or it would split the network, and some robot won't find room to put thing and stop working, and solar pannel and accumulators are usually placed in large numbers which takes also lots of time to deconstruct plus all the belts filled with stuff, and if you happen to have some chest in your base full of things, those takes a while to move around especially if they are filled with an item that has a large stack size :)

eBagger wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 am
Yeah I dunno how to describe the train problem without pictures

Anyway, thats the bullshit I'm working with. Trains have made me angrier than anything else in this game.

Fuck it I'm not even going to pick up the railway I'm going to fucking shoot rockets at it until it dies.

The amount of curse word sort of describe the anger you may be facing and shooting rockes at it until it disappear is one way to get rid of deadlocked trains more appealing than driving a lot of them manually back on short distance only to have to problem occur again later.


The rail network from the pictures look like difficult to make it work it's not easy to guess where signal should go with such layout.

It would be easier to use 2 parralel tracks, and picture it as 2 lane of a road, where each lane is a one way lane that's usually what is described in tutorial to make things simple.

When you have only 1 track , you either have signals only one 1 side, and it is a one way track, you can make loops and that's pretty much it , or you have signal on both sides, and that mean the track can be used both way, and this usually create problem of train facing another train and none of them wants to move back.

If there are portions of both, then you may see the "no path" message, because one train cannot go through a particular segment because it is signaled as a one-way backward.

This can happen if you just place 1 signal on 1 side of track in the middle of a section that was signaled on both side, the inner section becomes a one-way section where the signal is always on the "right" side.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by eBagger »

mmmPI wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:50 am
eBagger wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 am

Would it really take that long if I placed like 50 storage chests and selected the entire base and said to deconstruct? I have a few hundred bots of each type.

Yes, because you would cut power line , and robot would no longer charge and work, or it would split the network, and some robot won't find room to put thing and stop working, and solar pannel and accumulators are usually placed in large numbers which takes also lots of time to deconstruct plus all the belts filled with stuff, and if you happen to have some chest in your base full of things, those takes a while to move around especially if they are filled with an item that has a large stack size :)

eBagger wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 am
Yeah I dunno how to describe the train problem without pictures

Anyway, thats the bullshit I'm working with. Trains have made me angrier than anything else in this game.

Fuck it I'm not even going to pick up the railway I'm going to fucking shoot rockets at it until it dies.

The amount of curse word sort of describe the anger you may be facing and shooting rockes at it until it disappear is one way to get rid of deadlocked trains more appealing than driving a lot of them manually back on short distance only to have to problem occur again later.


The rail network from the pictures look like difficult to make it work it's not easy to guess where signal should go with such layout.

It would be easier to use 2 parralel tracks, and picture it as 2 lane of a road, where each lane is a one way lane that's usually what is described in tutorial to make things simple.

When you have only 1 track , you either have signals only one 1 side, and it is a one way track, you can make loops and that's pretty much it , or you have signal on both sides, and that mean the track can be used both way, and this usually create problem of train facing another train and none of them wants to move back.

If there are portions of both, then you may see the "no path" message, because one train cannot go through a particular segment because it is signaled as a one-way backward.

This can happen if you just place 1 signal on 1 side of track in the middle of a section that was signaled on both side, the inner section becomes a one-way section where the signal is always on the "right" side.
Ahh shit you are right. I didn't specify this, well, I did when I said maybe leave train dropoff station and oil processing, but I meant leave the fields of solar panels and accumulators as well (and roboports of course). Pretty much just pick up everything that's making stuff and science and labs and the bus. Main concern is I wouldn't be manufacturing anything else, would the hundreds of belts and inserters and assembly machines I'd built and that were already stored in chests be enough. And I feel like it would be enough since my mall is the first thing I'd rebuild. Then after I have a huge income of resources, like several linked Iron and Copper patches being fed into my new, more robust bus, and THEN worry about getting my sciences back up and running and learning nuclear. I currently have enough to do a few more big researches like Robot Worker speed 5 and Kovorax process, and then make the decision.

My plan is to beat the game on peaceful mode and learn as much as I can about trains, advanced oil processing, nuclear, and being neat and efficient as I can. Then try and beat the vanilla game on regular default everything, and then go on to Krastorio 2 or Space Exploration.

Really all I'd like is before I launch my rocket to have a nice neat organized factory like I see on all these tutorial or lets place vids I watch, and to not be constantly worrying about resources running thin. I suppose that's the name of the game though, and half the fun is learning to manage that.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by realcyberleon »

Regarding your new train tracks: DO 2 TRACKS, not one. One track for each direction. Leave 1 railway width space between these 2 tracks, you will need this space when you build curves and have to place signals, because one of your curve tracks will lead over the opposite track. The only other option would be to build everything in a big loop, but this definetely will backfire once your train network becomes too sizy. Oh and btw, I see you use the blue signals. I am almost only using the first signal, except at some parts in my station. The blue signal blocks the whole track for other trains once one train is on it, as long as there are blue signals placed in a row without other signals interrupting them. I only use these if i have like 10 parallel tracks leading together AND have to bridge more signals to reach a target location.
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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by Zavian »

I think it is pretty common for new players to be unhappy with how they laid out their first bases or two. That is just part of learning the game. Even experienced players wanting to build a large base often build a starter base, use that to do most of the research, then build their large base.

Personally I think that leaving your existing base (mostly) intact and building a new base somewhere nearby is a better strategy than starting over. Once the new base is working, then you can progressively tear-down whatever bits of your old base you no longer want. If you haven't already done so, it helps to divert some of your old bases production into building belts inserters assemblers etc so you don't need to hand craft too much stuff when building the new base. (That is the real reason to keep the old base mostly intact whilst building the new base).

The other alternative, as someone already suggested, is building sub-factories off-site, the using those to supply your main factory allowing you to progressively tear down area of your base to create space for new construction, or just to progressively rebuild your base at a larger scale.

One case where I would recommend restarting the game is if you are playing with aggressive biters, and are running out of resources, and can't kill the biters to get more resources. (But that you said you are on passive, so that shouldn't apply in your case).

Regarding bots. They are very useful, and are great for moving small amounts of stuff about your base, but they have their own limitations.

Regarding rails. The type of two way rail system you seem to have built can work, but isn't very scalable. Once you get more than two or three trains running you are better off with two parallel tracks. (It is also possible to have a two track system, and use sidings that are two way single track, but you then need to limit each siding one train at a time).

Here is a link to a tutorial on how to do two way rail tracks viewtopic.php?t=53937 .

Here is a link to the tutorial I used to learn trains https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... ts_23_and/ .(Note that the actual tutorial is available in multiple formats and isn't hosted on reddit. But that is the most convenient link to all the different formats. Also the graphics for trains and tracks changed a few years ago, and the devs added a few new features, like train limits, but the mechanics it does cover are still the same).

Regarding bots from memory there is a hot key to disable personal logistics and trash. They are also disabled if you die, since you probably don't want your logistics requests to overflow your inventory until after you have either retrieved your armour from your corpse, or got some new armour.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by Zavian »

realcyberleon wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:23 am
Leave 1 railway width space between these 2 tracks,
.....
Oh and btw, I see you use the blue signals. I am almost only using the first signal, except at some parts in my station.
Personally I recommend two railway width spaces (4 tiles) between the tracks.
Regarding chain signals, there are places where they are necessary, and places where normal rails signals are necessary. Use the appropriate signal for the job. I'm pretty sure that two way tracks need chain signals.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by mrvn »

eBagger wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 am
You can't have any normal signal on any two-way track. That will always deadlock eventually. You can only use chain signals there. When you have a fork you must have the chain signals before the fork so a train does not enter the fork unless it can leave it. And if the track is one-way you can place a normal signal after the fork if there is enough space AFTER the signal for the train.

Also some of your loops seem to be designed as one way. All the train stations assume the train drives clockwise. But then you put signals on both sides of the track. That makes no sense.

My suggestion would be to first remove all the signals except those at train stations. And then make all the loops go one way (clockwise meeting anti-clockwise) and signal them on one side only. You can make the spurs going to ore fields two-way but place the signals so that trains going in opposite directions don't block the other train from exiting the two-way section. One chain signal and one normal signal at each end where the track has already split. No need to ever place signals on both sides of a track.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by Zavian »

mrvn wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:10 am
You can't have any normal signal on any two-way track. That will always deadlock eventually. You can only use chain signals there.
I have to disagree slightly. There are other possible ways to prevent deadlock, eg by using the circuit network to control train departures and/or marshal trains before the two way section of track. If you have such a setup, then you should be able to use normal signals (assuming your circuit setup works). But 99.9% of the time once you have enough trains to even consider something like that, you are better off with a simpler, more robust and more scalable dual track setup.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by realcyberleon »

I'm pretty sure that two way tracks need chain signals.
Hi Zavian,

They dont ;) I m using 80 trains at the moment without any problems without chain signals.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by Zavian »

realcyberleon wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:52 pm
I'm pretty sure that two way tracks need chain signals.
Hi Zavian,

They dont ;) I m using 80 trains at the moment without any problems without chain signals.
80 trains on two way tracks? And not just on separate isolated tracks for one train each? If so I'd like to see the map.

Or are you using the more common dual track setup?

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by mrvn »

Zavian wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:24 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:10 am
You can't have any normal signal on any two-way track. That will always deadlock eventually. You can only use chain signals there.
I have to disagree slightly. There are other possible ways to prevent deadlock, eg by using the circuit network to control train departures and/or marshal trains before the two way section of track. If you have such a setup, then you should be able to use normal signals (assuming your circuit setup works). But 99.9% of the time once you have enough trains to even consider something like that, you are better off with a simpler, more robust and more scalable dual track setup.
If you do it with circuits and normal signals then you are just recreating chain signals the hard way. You can not let a train enter a two-way track unless it can leave that track (or arrives at its train stop). Anything else means the system can deadlock. And that is exactly what chain signals implement.

Note: With circuits you can not see if a train can reach its train stop or where it will leave the two-way track. It only works for some limited cases. A simple straight track with stackers at both ends and circuit control to let trains go one way or the other in groups is one of them. And the only case I can think of where circuits would improve things. But really, if you need that then it's far simpler to lay down a second parallel rail.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by eBagger »

realcyberleon wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:23 am
Regarding your new train tracks: DO 2 TRACKS, not one. One track for each direction. Leave 1 railway width space between these 2 tracks, you will need this space when you build curves and have to place signals, because one of your curve tracks will lead over the opposite track. The only other option would be to build everything in a big loop, but this definetely will backfire once your train network becomes too sizy. Oh and btw, I see you use the blue signals. I am almost only using the first signal, except at some parts in my station. The blue signal blocks the whole track for other trains once one train is on it, as long as there are blue signals placed in a row without other signals interrupting them. I only use these if i have like 10 parallel tracks leading together AND have to bridge more signals to reach a target location.
You wouldn't believe how long I've dissected that picture. Trying to figure out exactly where the S's are connected. I think I see it. And yeah I'm seeing why 1 2 way track aint the way. Unfortunately it was after I finished building this whole thing I figured out that depending on what side you place the signals decides what way the track is...... :oops:
Zavian wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:44 am
I think it is pretty common for new players to be unhappy with how they laid out their first bases or two. That is just part of learning the game. Even experienced players wanting to build a large base often build a starter base, use that to do most of the research, then build their large base.

Personally I think that leaving your existing base (mostly) intact and building a new base somewhere nearby is a better strategy than starting over. Once the new base is working, then you can progressively tear-down whatever bits of your old base you no longer want. If you haven't already done so, it helps to divert some of your old bases production into building belts inserters assemblers etc so you don't need to hand craft too much stuff when building the new base. (That is the real reason to keep the old base mostly intact whilst building the new base).

The other alternative, as someone already suggested, is building sub-factories off-site, the using those to supply your main factory allowing you to progressively tear down area of your base to create space for new construction, or just to progressively rebuild your base at a larger scale.

One case where I would recommend restarting the game is if you are playing with aggressive biters, and are running out of resources, and can't kill the biters to get more resources. (But that you said you are on passive, so that shouldn't apply in your case).

Regarding bots. They are very useful, and are great for moving small amounts of stuff about your base, but they have their own limitations.

Regarding rails. The type of two way rail system you seem to have built can work, but isn't very scalable. Once you get more than two or three trains running you are better off with two parallel tracks. (It is also possible to have a two track system, and use sidings that are two way single track, but you then need to limit each siding one train at a time).

Here is a link to a tutorial on how to do two way rail tracks viewtopic.php?t=53937 .

Here is a link to the tutorial I used to learn trains https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... ts_23_and/ .(Note that the actual tutorial is available in multiple formats and isn't hosted on reddit. But that is the most convenient link to all the different formats. Also the graphics for trains and tracks changed a few years ago, and the devs added a few new features, like train limits, but the mechanics it does cover are still the same).

Regarding bots from memory there is a hot key to disable personal logistics and trash. They are also disabled if you die, since you probably don't want your logistics requests to overflow your inventory until after you have either retrieved your armour from your corpse, or got some new armour.
Thank you! I've browsed over that tutorial, looks good but I can't imagine it hammering anything else in my head.

And yeah I'm starting to see why its being recommended to just make my ideal base elsewhere. I keep having these thoughts that I have limited resources so I need to recycle, but I've found tons of other deposits so I dunno why I'm being stingy about it.

Zavian wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:00 am
realcyberleon wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:23 am
Leave 1 railway width space between these 2 tracks,
.....
Oh and btw, I see you use the blue signals. I am almost only using the first signal, except at some parts in my station.
Personally I recommend two railway width spaces (4 tiles) between the tracks.
Regarding chain signals, there are places where they are necessary, and places where normal rails signals are necessary. Use the appropriate signal for the job. I'm pretty sure that two way tracks need chain signals.
Yeah for some anytime I place a signal it acts like it wants a chain signal somewhere to go with it. Or maybe its the other way around....
mrvn wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:10 am
eBagger wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 am
You can't have any normal signal on any two-way track. That will always deadlock eventually. You can only use chain signals there. When you have a fork you must have the chain signals before the fork so a train does not enter the fork unless it can leave it. And if the track is one-way you can place a normal signal after the fork if there is enough space AFTER the signal for the train.

Also some of your loops seem to be designed as one way. All the train stations assume the train drives clockwise. But then you put signals on both sides of the track. That makes no sense.

My suggestion would be to first remove all the signals except those at train stations. And then make all the loops go one way (clockwise meeting anti-clockwise) and signal them on one side only. You can make the spurs going to ore fields two-way but place the signals so that trains going in opposite directions don't block the other train from exiting the two-way section. One chain signal and one normal signal at each end where the track has already split. No need to ever place signals on both sides of a track.
"No need to ever place signals on both sides of a track" - Trust me I think I get what you're saying, and that's what I tried, but unfortunately if I don't place signals on both sides, I get no path, which I assume is because I only have 1 main rail both coming and going. Doesn't make sense to me either but I'd place everything how it did make sense to me, nothing worked, and then when I started placing signals on both sides it started working.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by Nosferatu »

eBagger wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:12 am
"No need to ever place signals on both sides of a track" - Trust me I think I get what you're saying, and that's what I tried, but unfortunately if I don't place signals on both sides, I get no path, which I assume is because I only have 1 main rail both coming and going. Doesn't make sense to me either but I'd place everything how it did make sense to me, nothing worked, and then when I started placing signals on both sides it started working.
If you place only one signal then trains will only travel in one direction.
Placing the second signal fixed that - but as others already said. If the signals are normal signals you will end up with a deadlock.

If you come into this situation then you should ask yourself if a signal is really needed here.

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Re: How common is it to deconstruct EVERYTHING and start over late-mid game?

Post by mrvn »

eBagger wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:12 am
mrvn wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:10 am
eBagger wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 am
You can't have any normal signal on any two-way track. That will always deadlock eventually. You can only use chain signals there. When you have a fork you must have the chain signals before the fork so a train does not enter the fork unless it can leave it. And if the track is one-way you can place a normal signal after the fork if there is enough space AFTER the signal for the train.

Also some of your loops seem to be designed as one way. All the train stations assume the train drives clockwise. But then you put signals on both sides of the track. That makes no sense.

My suggestion would be to first remove all the signals except those at train stations. And then make all the loops go one way (clockwise meeting anti-clockwise) and signal them on one side only. You can make the spurs going to ore fields two-way but place the signals so that trains going in opposite directions don't block the other train from exiting the two-way section. One chain signal and one normal signal at each end where the track has already split. No need to ever place signals on both sides of a track.
"No need to ever place signals on both sides of a track" - Trust me I think I get what you're saying, and that's what I tried, but unfortunately if I don't place signals on both sides, I get no path, which I assume is because I only have 1 main rail both coming and going. Doesn't make sense to me either but I'd place everything how it did make sense to me, nothing worked, and then when I started placing signals on both sides it started working.
When you get "no path" that means you either a) place the signals on the wrong side of the track, or b) connected 3 (or any odd number) loops so one runs clockwise, one anticlockwise and then the third would need to run both ways. Think of each loop as a gear wheel. The gear wheels must be able to turn.
loop-fail.png
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With the loops all going clockwise alternating with anti-clockwise you should have no problem getting paths. And then you can add stations and spokes. Note that I did add chain signals on both sides of the two-way track at the fork. They are not required but at forks is the one place where adding (chain) signals on both sides of the track does make sense and improve things.
loops-with-spokes.png
loops-with-spokes.png (4.71 MiB) Viewed 534 times
On the other hand if you want to go with parallel tracks I do favor the roundabout for it's simplicity. The only rule you absolutely have to follow is that there must be space for a full train after every normal signal. If roundabouts are too close together replace the signals with a chain signal. And if you do make loops it's bets to make them big, otherwise there is a risk of grid-lock (as in every grid).

roundabout.png
roundabout.png (4.05 MiB) Viewed 534 times

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