I think assembling machines need some balance changes

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yktktlk
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I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by yktktlk »

I've been thinking about this since assembling machine recipes changed. Even before that, progressing thru post mid-game with a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous.

With v0.17, came recipe changes and AM2 now requires 2 steel plates. They've become more expensive. But with this expensiveness, no benefits came.

With all those in mind, i think AM crafting speeds should be like this:
AM1: 0.75x
AM2: 1x
AM3: 2x (or more)

What do you guys think?

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jodokus31
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by jodokus31 »

Am2 is not much more expensive. 2 steel = 10 Iron + smelting.
Im fine with the current speeds

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by 5thHorseman »

I've always thought it was weird that the only thing in the game that crafts at the default crafting speed was the one thing the entire game is built around not crafting with.

But as to how fast things actually craft I don't think there's any imbalance between assemblers.
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by picklock »

I'm also fine with the current speeds of the AMs

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bormand
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by bormand »

0.5x,1x and 2x will be more intuitive, of course.

But it's too late to change them, I think. Such changes will break many builds that were tuned for specific speed and Factorio isn't in early access any more.

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by yktktlk »

I don't think it is.
I believe devs will keep improving/changing different aspects of the game with patches in the future.
AM speeds can change too. We re-did factories or start over with new games many times already. I don't think it would be problem.

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by bormand »

yktktlk wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:31 pm
We re-did factories or start over with new games many times already.
What was ok for an early access beta isn't ok for a stable, released game. Expectations are very different and many people can be upset.

Sure, new features and small balancing changes are still possible. They already buffed productivity modules 1, for example.

But honestly, do you really had problems with steel for AM2, aside from deathworld marathon? You shouldn't compare costs and speeds to old versions, you should look at them in the current context. Does AM2 costs too much for a +50% crafting speed? I don't think so.

And while simpler ratios like 0.5x, 1x and 2x are more intuitive, "strange" ratios like 0.5x and 0.75x gave us interesting builds, like green circuits factory used by speedrunners.

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by JimBarracus »

What about something like a "random mode" ?
Crafting times and crafting speed would be randomized and you need to figure it out to get good ratios.

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by Koub »

JimBarracus wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:54 am
What about something like a "random mode" ?
Crafting times and crafting speed would be randomized and you need to figure it out to get good ratios.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/zKenirasRandomRecipes ?
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by starlinvf »

yktktlk wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:27 am
I've been thinking about this since assembling machine recipes changed. Even before that, progressing thru post mid-game with a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous.

With v0.17, came recipe changes and AM2 now requires 2 steel plates. They've become more expensive. But with this expensiveness, no benefits came.

With all those in mind, i think AM crafting speeds should be like this:
AM1: 0.75x
AM2: 1x
AM3: 2x (or more)

What do you guys think?
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:23 pm
I've always thought it was weird that the only thing in the game that crafts at the default crafting speed was the one thing the entire game is built around not crafting with.

But as to how fast things actually craft I don't think there's any imbalance between assemblers.


It kind of comes off as messing up game play for the sake of OCD. There are 2 basic concepts in play here that you're intentionally left to address through the game mechanics.

1. Crafting speed, and thus crafting throughput, is meant to be overcome by parallelization and ratio comparisons. Literally everything in the game can be solved by simply upscaling your production. You craft 1 inserter by hand, you're also crafting a gear, wire, a circuit, then the inserter itself...... which has to be done in serial. With AMs, you set them up to craft all those items at the same time, and it can do it continuously without you doing anything. Output to a chest, and just come back to retrieve the supply when you need more. This is the fundamental principle of the game at work.

2. The slower baseline crafting speed of machines also balances off the smelting times of ores and plates. This has much bigger ramifications in the early game, as making AM crafting faster directly impacts the input rate you need to keep them going. That means you have to reexamine smelting rates, inserter swing speed, belt speeds and recipe ratios in the early game, as this all affects the cost of set up. It also introduces a lot late game balance concerns, because modules have a compounding effect. This can be seen as a trade off.... but that one change directly brings everything else on to the table for further balance considerations. Should faster inserters require more power to offset gains? Should power production be upscaled as well? Should recipes be more or less expensive at different tiers of production to tune ratios? What about the throughput rate of ore mining? Should research times be slower or faster to better align with the baseline throughput of each science pack?

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by pichutarius »

5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:23 pm
I've always thought it was weird that the only thing in the game that crafts at the default crafting speed was the one thing the entire game is built around not crafting with.
actually chem plant, refinery, centrifuge use default crafting speed too. but they produce what handcraft cannot.

but i totally agree with you that one of the am should be x1, and i prefer am3 because it makes endgame calculation easier.

the counter argument might be existing bp will need to change, everyone will be angry.

so i propose all am-recipe craft time decrease by 20%, and change am craft speed to x0.4 , x0.6 , x1. this way nothing change except handcraft is buffed by 25%. which might makes someone angry anyway.

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

pichutarius wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:36 am
so i propose all am-recipe craft time decrease by 20%, and change am craft speed to x0.4 , x0.6 , x1. this way nothing change except handcraft is buffed by 25%. which might makes someone angry anyway.
+1

I'm sure handcrafting speed could be decreased to compensate too
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by jodokus31 »

pichutarius wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:36 am
so i propose all am-recipe craft time decrease by 20%, and change am craft speed to x0.4 , x0.6 , x1. this way nothing change except handcraft is buffed by 25%. which might makes someone angry anyway.
I don't think its better, when all recipes show ugly numbers, to make AM2 crafting speeds look nicer

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by ickputzdirwech »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:14 am
I don't think its better, when all recipes show ugly numbers, to make AM2 crafting speeds look nicer
+1

It’s to late to change this and the somewhat odd numbers add some complexity to the otherwise really simple to use assembling machines. Refineries and chemical plants have different challenges, therefore it makes sense if the numbers you are dealing with are simpler.
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by Koub »

This is the quite simple thing to mod, just to see if it really makes an improvement in the game, or if it's just basically a number that changes somewhere and that's all.
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by Soul-Burn »

AM2 is not just 50% faster than AM1, it also accepts modules. AM3 is faster and accepts more modules.

Modules (and beacons) are used a lot in late game bases and by speedrunners, but aren't used very much by average players pre-rocket and therefore this benefit isn't too evident. This, I feel it has to with the work and materials required to make the modules compared to a bonus that could usually be done by scaling up, other than efficiency for pollution reduction.

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by pichutarius »

ickputzdirwech wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:54 am
...
Too late or not is subjective, for me im willing to change it at a cost of my old bp or weird craft time numbers. But i know im in the minority. So i move on.

Easy to mod or not is also subjective, just like math teacher saying math is easy.

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by Koub »

Soul-Burn wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:59 pm
AM2 is not just 50% faster than AM1, it also accepts modules.
and fluid input.
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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by jodokus31 »

pichutarius wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:12 pm
Easy to mod or not is also subjective, just like math teacher saying math is easy.
Easy to let it be modded:
viewforum.php?f=33

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Re: I think assembling machines need some balance changes

Post by shopt »

pichutarius wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:12 pm
ickputzdirwech wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:54 am
...
Easy to mod or not is also subjective, just like math teacher saying math is easy.
If you really want it, I'm a noob modder and I could have it done in under 15 minutes (with hardcoded numbers and no gui). You can then change the numbers as much as you want with notepad.

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