Cost of signal filtering

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SoMuchForSubtelty
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Cost of signal filtering

Post by SoMuchForSubtelty » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:40 pm

This change would be considerable so I doubt that on balance it would be worth while to what is an almost perfect game as vanilla.
Furthermore, mods either exist or could be written to achieve this if it bothers me that much. I just have an irrational prejudice that modding is almost like cheating.
Something I have repeatedly found though is that I will invest considerably in optimising my logic to shrink it, only to find that there is just no getting away from the need to filter signals. In order to filter signals and typically needing to avoid transients then depending upon the means this now requires minimum two combinators. Now there are a whole host of problems which while still possible just become unwieldy in terms of footprint and are no longer satisfying to solve. Actually footprint is a problem for logic generally.

It would be nice to see some single combinator solution to signal filtering. Some initial thoughts...

* A third combinator white/black list for filtering limited-choice/unlimited signals. (perhaps even 1x1 square)
** (A limited number of filters would be in keeping with the idea of something that is easy for these steam punk combinators. I have always imagined these circuits might be simple channels of AM or FM shielded somehow.)
* Module (behaves as above) add on for two slots on any combinator which can filter input and/or output.
* (There is perhaps an opportunity in the above to provide a cheat on solving a problem which is other wise just too costly as far as I can tell, select the 'n' greater or smaller signals than some value 'x')
* No module at all. Just a new configurable on all existing combinators.
* Reduce the foot print of combinators altogether. 3x3 frames (which maybe have their own power overhead) where you can now plug in logic modules similar to armour and, patch cable them together. (Maybe you can energy module them to reduce power)

Most of the above are too radical and would change the feel of the game. But there is almost certainly some better better suggestion out there.
As I say though, through modding of course if you don't like something then there is the solution. No doubt there are mods out there already, I admit I haven't looked but then again I like the challenge of the game's existing constraints. I just feel this constraint is a little too "unbalancing" of the problems that are worth solving in vanilla.

Awesome game of course!

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BattleFluffy
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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by BattleFluffy » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:39 pm

When you say signal filtering, are you talking about extracting 1 signal from a wire that contains many signals?

For example, a red wire that contains the following:

A=1
B=2
C=4

...and we would like to have a wire containing only C=4 (for example), using as few combinators as possible?

If that's what you meant, it's achieveable in 1 combinator. But I suspect I misunderstood you..?

SoMuchForSubtelty
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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by SoMuchForSubtelty » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:04 pm

BattleFluffy wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:39 pm
When you say signal filtering, are you talking about extracting 1 signal from a wire that contains many signals?

...

If that's what you meant, it's achieveable in 1 combinator. But I suspect I misunderstood you..?
Hi BattleFluffy thanks for the response. I don't think you misunderstood me. Rather I was far too vague. Filtering to 'leave' 1 signal is the only truly cheap problem.
Filtering to 'remove' even just 1 signal requires at least two combinators if transients are a problem.
(A=2, B=5, C=3) > (A=2, C=3)
Yes, if you are removing lots of signals it quickly becomes cheaper to arithmetic-shift-via-sum > decider filter > shift-via-subtract back (as long as your domain doesn't need the whole range). However, in between means many solutions overall take far more space than the thing you are trying to control (not good for critter boarder size, power, or bot coverage).
It almost looks like the arithmetic operators provide the answer (e.g. AND mask green circuit against red or some such). I think I am being fussy and looking for a 2 tile solution to filtering a removing 1 channel no transients, 4 tile solution to filtering any selection of channels.

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BattleFluffy
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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by BattleFluffy » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:29 pm

Okay I understand now. Yeap, there isn't a better way to do that..

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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by leitk » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:38 pm

If you only need to filter positive (or negative) values, it can be done with 3 combinators:
FilterCombinator.png
FilterCombinator.png (363.91 KiB) Viewed 332 times
From selection wire feed to decider each != 0 output each 1
from there feed to each * intmin (-2147483648)
(if the selection is fixed, those can be replaced with one CC that just has each value to be filtered to be intmin).

Take the input line and one color from the intmin combinator and feed to a decider each < 0 output each input value.
Take the output from the intmin conbinator on another color wire and combine it with the decider combinator, that's the filtered value.

If the selector and input need to be tick equivalent, add a combinator to the input wire first to do nothing.

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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by PyroFire » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:16 am

Or just use this mod: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/circuitchips

It does exactly what you're asking for, with blueprint/copy-paste convenience.

Image

Image

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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by Hannu » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:56 am

I would prefer 1x1 sized electronics box (or 1x2 or 2x2 if connections would require more room) which would work like factorissimo mod if player open it by clicking. There could be large room for complex combinator connections. It would be very realistic too, you can have very powerful server and industrial logic system in 1 m^2 room. Much more than single trivial operation of two signals.

It is small thing because there is no much real use for logic in vanilla, but would be nice for tests and railyard use and with more complex mods. I like to have realistic quite tight railyards and there is no room for many combinators between tracks. Of course there could be larger variety of combinators and their function too.

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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by PyroFire » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:47 am

Circuit Chips / Advanced Combinator
Image


A composite combinator combined with combinations of combinators from a combinated combinator. Allows you to "enter" a special combinator to build a circuit network inside it, which is then deployed over this special combinator in the real world. This lets you seamlessly condense complex circuitry into a single combinator. Factorissimo but instead of factory warehouses it's a circuit warehouse. Blueprint Compatible.

Hannu wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:56 am
I would prefer 1x1 sized electronics box (or 1x2 or 2x2 if connections would require more room)
Image

Hannu wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:56 am
which would work like factorissimo mod if player open it by clicking. There could be large room for complex combinator connections. It would be very realistic too, you can have very powerful server and industrial logic system in 1 m^2 room. Much more than single trivial operation of two signals.
Factorissimo but instead of factory warehouses it's a circuit warehouse.

Image
Hannu wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:56 am
It is small thing because there is no much real use for logic in vanilla, but would be nice for tests and railyard use and with more complex mods. I like to have realistic quite tight railyards and there is no room for many combinators between tracks. Of course there could be larger variety of combinators and their function too.
Image

copy+paste or blueprint.

Throw one of these at the chip to enter/exit it.

Image

Image

This mod is perfectly efficient and perfectly optimized because it literally uses tiny combinators, and the surface it creates for you to configure is only temporary for you to configure it.

Did i miss anything?

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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by Hannu » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:22 am

PyroFire wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:47 am
This mod is perfectly efficient and perfectly optimized because it literally uses tiny combinators, and the surface it creates for you to configure is only temporary for you to configure it.

Did i miss anything?
Thank you. It really seems that nothing is missed. I will try this next time I play.

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Re: Cost of signal filtering

Post by gGeorg » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:43 am

This warehouse of circuit is genial.
It would be great if it has some user editable description, what the complex box does.
It clears out trains stations thats for sure.
I wish this was implemented in the main game in future.

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