Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

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Grindy98
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Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

Post by Grindy98 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:42 am

I am sorry if this was posted before, but I searched for such a post and nothing came up.

Honestly, I personally find the Artillery Wagon's current recipe "awkward" given the fact that it is better than its immobile counterpart in almost every aspect (including the stack size of shells - of course not as relevant since you only use the wagon for transporting ammunition around).
I'm not saying the recipe of the Artillery Wagon is cheaper, although at first glance it might seem so:

Code: Select all

Artillery Turret:
20 red circuits
60 concrete
40 gears
60 steel

Code: Select all

Artillery Wagon:
20 red circuits
64 engines
10 gears
16 pipes
40 steel
Now, of course, after calculating the total raw, the wagon is more expensive, as it should be. However, I think an Artillery Wagon should cost a turret, because it would be more logical, given that one is the mobile (basically upgraded) version of the other. Besides that, the difference in crafting time between the two has seemingly no logic, the turret taking ten times longer to craft (now this might be intended, since other wagons also have a decently small crafting time).

I think changing this would be more related to consistency than strictly game balance, since it probably isn't going to influence the game in any way whatsoever. Despite that, it is such an easy tweak to make, so why not remove all extra resources besides maybe the engine units and just add an Artillery Turret to the recipe. Maybe even add some more steel/pipes/gears on top.

What do you guys think? I don't have a lot of experience with this game, but this was just a random thing I found when checking the requirements for the Artillery Turret/Wagon and the numbers just feel odd.

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Re: Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

Post by slippycheeze » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:40 pm

Grindy98 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:42 am
What do you guys think?
I think that you are not wrong, but by the time folks are making artillery of any sort, the cost is approximately zero -- time is effectively zero because it is all automated, and cost is effectively zero because you don't get that far without a decent setup for building all those raw ingredients without human attention.

So, to my taste, the wagon should use an artillery turret, and a wagon, and then a bit of electronic and battery gumph, to feel more logical. There isn't much balance consideration other than that -- none of those are exceptions to the "approximately zero" cost rule of thumb.

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Re: Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

Post by mmmPI » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:23 pm

It had never bothered me, but now that you mention it, i thought it was logical for the faster time for wagon than for turret and i'd explain it this way: You can craft XXXX turrets and place them, the longer part is crafting them, then just run and pack them tight on a wall, for wagons you can craft XXXX wagon and place them, the longer part is placing them, and also placing the rails under it, and you have a limit that arise quickly, so it makes it not too op to have fast building wagon, since you can't scale the number of them as fast as you would with arty turrets.

for the cost , on top of the raw material there should be the time for total receipe to produce, because to my mind 64 engine is very long, or need lots of parallel assembly, compared to 60 concrete which also balances the fact that the wagon is way better but maybe i'm wrong.

Wouldn't it be weird to require concrete for the wagon ? since concrete is needed for the turret.
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Re: Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

Post by Grindy98 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:52 pm

slippycheeze wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:40 pm
So, to my taste, the wagon should use an artillery turret, and a wagon, and then a bit of electronic and battery gumph, to feel more logical. There isn't much balance consideration other than that -- none of those are exceptions to the "approximately zero" cost rule of thumb.
Yes, something along the lines of what you mentioned would be a great recipe.
As I said though in my post, this is not strictly about game balance, it is rather about how consistent is the said recipe. Of course there are plenty of examples where one inferior tier of items does not get used in the following tier (smelters, miners etc), but I think in this case it would be best if there was some sort of "connection" between the wagon and turret.
Last edited by Grindy98 on Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

Post by Grindy98 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:01 pm

mmmPI wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:23 pm
for wagons you can craft XXXX wagon and place them, the longer part is placing them, and also placing the rails under it
Honestly though, placing both is kinda easy, since you can technically blueprint the wagon with the rails under it and so on. No one will ever want to use this blueprint instead of just plopping down a turret for static artillery though, but your argument about how long it takes placing one over the other doesn't really make sense. Although,the speed of crafting any wagon/cart is pretty much under 5 seconds, so the developers might want to keep it that way.

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Re: Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

Post by mmmPI » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:13 pm

Grindy98 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:01 pm
mmmPI wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:23 pm
for wagons you can craft XXXX wagon and place them, the longer part is placing them, and also placing the rails under it
Honestly though, placing both is kinda easy, since you can technically blueprint the wagon with the rails under it and so on. No one will ever want to use this blueprint instead of just plopping down a turret for static artillery though, but your argument about how long it takes placing one over the other doesn't really make sense. Although,the speed of crafting any wagon/cart is pretty much under 5 seconds, so the developers might want to keep it that way.
Well one need a BP and it wasn't possible before it's pretty recent, the other one is like placing a wall , or a belt.

you also have the idea of the size of 1 thing for the shooting capacity/surface.

and the general practical use of having your wall made of XXXXX arty wagon instead of static arty, this is totally not practical ,to have a practical use of XXXX many arty wagon you'd need to invest way much more time as if you want practical use of XXXX many arty turret

I meant in a general balance it has never occured to me, "hey let's make a wall of arty wagon instead of arty turret that's so much cheaper/faster/better" though i must admit i use arty wagons as chests for my shells near my station and transfer from static wagon to real arty train to load in most of games where i have used them :D
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Re: Differences Between the Recipe of Artillery Turrets and Wagons

Post by Grindy98 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:41 am

mmmPI wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:13 pm

and the general practical use of having your wall made of XXXXX arty wagon instead of static arty, this is totally not practical ,to have a practical use of XXXX many arty wagon you'd need to invest way much more time as if you want practical use of XXXX many arty turret

I meant in a general balance it has never occured to me, "hey let's make a wall of arty wagon instead of arty turret that's so much cheaper/faster/better" though i must admit i use arty wagons as chests for my shells near my station and transfer from static wagon to real arty train to load in most of games where i have used them :D
Although I agree, I have to say that just straight up building a huge amount of artillery weapons and placing them close together makes close to no sense.
Idk, it just seems off though, like at least drop the pipes from the recipe of the wagon, or just add it to the turret, again for consistency's sake if including the whole turret in the recipe seems too much.

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