17.xx balancing volume puerple science

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Nomadic Steppe
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17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Nomadic Steppe » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:53 pm

Good afternoon community.

I am testing the 17.xx and I really liked the change of the recipe to create yellow science, I only play with belts and the old recipe was a nuisance, 30 copper threads was a nuisance, it was a huge volume of a product of null value in a mega base, and creating more than 500 SPM of yellow science was an ugly job just by volume of copper wire.

That's why the change is excellent. But ... the problem did not disappear, only changed to the purple science.

now purple science requires 30 train tracks to create one, the same volume but now of a more complex element, which is more annoying, can you change that recipe? that the purple science costs the same or more but without asking so much volume.

for example, change the 30 train tracks by an assembly machine lvl 2.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Koub » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:17 pm

Loosely related : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=69174

Also it is explicitely on purpose that things are the way they are :
Rails. One of the coolest recipes in the game which also uses Iron sticks and raw Stone. Rails are also produced quickly while being relatively cheap - this means they can be used in high quantities in the science pack recipe to achieve the same 'high throughput ingredient' as 0.16 High-tech science pack had with Copper cables - except rails do not feel out of place because it’s never too late in the game to start building trains. The point of 'do you use direct insertion' is here twice as you can direct insert Rails into Production science pack machines, and you can do the same for Iron sticks into Rails (the ratio is also very nice by the way). The idea of making it easier for people to try using trains is also good.
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Nomadic Steppe
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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Nomadic Steppe » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:41 pm

During 16.xx the copper wire was already a problem when my base exceeded 500 SPM, "just using belts" the yellow science would require too many connections with more copper wire everywhere.

That was cumbersome, ugly and annoying

because it would not be the same in 17.xx with the same volume of a more complex element?

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by JimBarracus » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:21 am

sure there is a challenge, but it also motivates you to rethink the common designs.
High volume item -> direct production, depending on the beacon setup dedicated rail assemblers for science pack assemblers.
Using belts is too complex.

High volume recipes also motivate you to conider using production modules.

I think the changes are good and give the science pack production a growing difficulty.
If it still bugs you: tHeRe Is A mOd f0r Th@t.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Nomadic Steppe » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am

Working with large volumes artificially does not make the game more fun.

example

Would the game be more fun if the yellow science recipe used 90 elements separately (30 rocks, 30 iron bars, 30 steels) instead of 30 (30 train tracks)?

The natural way of things is to use 10,000 raw materials to create 1,000 simple elements, with these 1,000, you create 100 medium elements, with 100 medium elements you create 10 complex elements and end up creating a very complex element.

I do not see sense, that something complex needs tons of elements of very low complexity for its creation

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Oktokolo » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:44 am

Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I do not see sense, that something complex needs tons of elements of very low complexity for its creation
Look at any PC motherboard in real life: Hundreds of different elements of wich some are used way more often than others. Requiring rails does not make sense at all (they did that to increase stone consumption). But requiring some low-level component in high quantity does make sense.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Nomadic Steppe » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:36 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:44 am
Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I do not see sense, that something complex needs tons of elements of very low complexity for its creation
Look at any PC motherboard in real life: Hundreds of different elements of wich some are used way more often than others. Requiring rails does not make sense at all (they did that to increase stone consumption). But requiring some low-level component in high quantity does make sense.
I understand that the developers want to increase the consumption of rock, but it can be done better, in my previous mega base I needed demaciated blue belts filled with copper wire for the yellow science, that was not fun, it was too cumbersome, and I would need more because the mega base does not finish it.

Now I am building a new mega base, and this problem worries me, same volume but of a more complex element than before, because the volume should never be a mechanic for the difficulty in a recipe.

in your example, the mother card is not a final element, with the motherboard are manufactured the computers , but the purple science is a final element, with the purple science is not created new more complex elements.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by slippycheeze » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:07 am

Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:36 pm
Oktokolo wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:44 am
Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I do not see sense, that something complex needs tons of elements of very low complexity for its creation
Look at any PC motherboard in real life: Hundreds of different elements of wich some are used way more often than others. Requiring rails does not make sense at all (they did that to increase stone consumption). But requiring some low-level component in high quantity does make sense.
I understand that the developers want to increase the consumption of rock, but it can be done better, in my previous mega base I needed demaciated blue belts filled with copper wire for the yellow science, that was not fun, it was too cumbersome, and I would need more because the mega base does not finish it.

Now I am building a new mega base, and this problem worries me, same volume but of a more complex element than before, because the volume should never be a mechanic for the difficulty in a recipe.
I feel that you are describing a different problem to the one you think you have: if you don't have enough copper to make this stuff, use the rails you automated to travel out to giant copper deposits and establish a mine, then ship it back to smelt and build into what you need. (or stone, or iron, or whatever.)

In other words: if your problem is that yellow science needs too much raw resource, don't cannibalize your base, use the tools you already built to obtain the resources required.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Nomadic Steppe » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:30 am

slippycheeze wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:07 am
Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:36 pm
Oktokolo wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:44 am
Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 am
I do not see sense, that something complex needs tons of elements of very low complexity for its creation
Look at any PC motherboard in real life: Hundreds of different elements of wich some are used way more often than others. Requiring rails does not make sense at all (they did that to increase stone consumption). But requiring some low-level component in high quantity does make sense.
I understand that the developers want to increase the consumption of rock, but it can be done better, in my previous mega base I needed demaciated blue belts filled with copper wire for the yellow science, that was not fun, it was too cumbersome, and I would need more because the mega base does not finish it.

Now I am building a new mega base, and this problem worries me, same volume but of a more complex element than before, because the volume should never be a mechanic for the difficulty in a recipe.
I feel that you are describing a different problem to the one you think you have: if you don't have enough copper to make this stuff, use the rails you automated to travel out to giant copper deposits and establish a mine, then ship it back to smelt and build into what you need. (or stone, or iron, or whatever.)

In other words: if your problem is that yellow science needs too much raw resource, don't cannibalize your base, use the tools you already built to obtain the resources required.
What ? You did not understand anything about my post.

I have already created mega bases of more than 100 hours of play with 100 or more simultaneous trains,

viewtopic.php?f=204&t=58833

I know the game well, what I would like is a purple science station that uses one or two elements equal to or more expensive than the 30 rails "example, two blue factories.", and that avoid cumbersome designs of belts connected everywhere to carry so much volume.

Interestingly, the current yellow science is much more complex than the old and I like it more, very complex but avoiding exaggerated volumes of simple elements.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:55 am

Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:36 pm
I understand that the developers want to increase the consumption of rock, but it can be done better, in my previous mega base I needed demaciated blue belts filled with copper wire for the yellow science, that was not fun, it was too cumbersome, and I would need more because the mega base does not finish it.
The "trick" is to make the science production tile smaller. Build as much rail assemblers as needed to fill a yellow belt and then as much science assemblers as needed to consume it. Group that together to get a science production tile. Add as much tiles as you need. Could also directly feed rails into science assemblers like doing with copper wires for green circuits.
Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:36 pm
Now I am building a new mega base, and this problem worries me, same volume but of a more complex element than before, because the volume should never be a mechanic for the difficulty in a recipe.
Factorio is all about logistics. The logistic aspect of the recipe needing a complex intermediate in numbers is a challenge - meaning it is working as designed.
Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:36 pm
in your example, the mother card is not a final element, with the motherboard are manufactured the computers , but the purple science is a final element, with the purple science is not created new more complex elements.
Motherboards might not be final - but purple science isn't either. I fed shittons of science to the labs and the converted it into tech tree advances. The final element of the science production chain is knowledge.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Nomadic Steppe » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:36 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:55 am
Build as much rail assemblers as needed to fill a yellow belt
a yellow belt, :| I speak of the point where you need 6 belts, 8 belts or more full blue belts to keep the production, look at my megabase 16.xx, I publish how each type of science produced, but not the yellow, I designed each factories of each type of science perfectly organized and clean, but not the yellow, so much copper wire transformed it into pure chaos.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:57 am

Nomadic Steppe wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:36 pm
a yellow belt, :| I speak of the point where you need 6 belts, 8 belts or more full blue belts to keep the production, look at my megabase 16.xx, I publish how each type of science produced, but not the yellow, I designed each factories of each type of science perfectly organized and clean, but not the yellow, so much copper wire transformed it into pure chaos.
You can have more than one science production tile. Design one that works with a yellow belt of rails and build it multiple times. Likely you have more than one iron smelting column. You can have more than one purple science "column" too.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Koub » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:15 am

I'm quite aware of my crappy skills in Factorio, which is why I don't post in the show your creations subforum.
Despite that, this simple layout will provice exactly 1k purple science per minute (4 red belts to feed it rails) :
purple science
And to feed it with rails, this is just enough :
rails
Yeah, unbeaconed setup, I don't like beaconing end-products. Speed beaconed would have dramatically shrunk the setup.

You want 5k science ? fine, copy paste this 4 more times.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: 17.xx balancing volume puerple science

Post by Nomadic Steppe » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:53 am

interesting design, then I will look at it in more detail, I have restarted my game, about 40 hours: /

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