Remove or tweak heavy oil to solid fuel recipe.

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thereaverofdarkness
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Re: Remove or tweak heavy oil to solid fuel recipe.

Post by thereaverofdarkness » Sun May 27, 2018 7:45 pm

bobucles wrote:
But 300 <oil> per second isn't that high
It really really REALLY is. 300 light oil per second requires over 6000% of crude yield to keep loaded. 300 light oil per second is 375MW of potential power, or over a hundred unupgraded laser turrets. You may as well call them griefer turrets because trolls will build 1 and wipe out the entire team's oil supply.

There is perhaps an argument for saying that flame turrets are a bit too efficient, but we're talking about a slight change to 4-10 oil/sec. Not 300. That's absurd. Seriously. Wow.
No, you're way off. Considering how much power you could get out of the oil if you turned it into solid fuel is ignoring all of the infrastructure required to both convert it to solid fuel and use that solid fuel for power. And besides, a flame turret is far more powerful than a laser turret, and far less refined. It should be far less efficient. Your 6000% figure applies to depleted pumpjacks without speed or productivity modules, the minimum. A rich oil field will generate far more, up to a maximum of 100 crude per second per pumpjack without speed or productivity. The flame turret does not fire and use oil constantly, rather it is almost always off. Even a base which gets attacked frequently has its flame turrets firing less than 5% of the time. At 300 oil per second, with 3 flame turrets firing 5% of the time, you're losing an average of about 45 oil per second to the flame turrets. That's what a single pumpjack running at 450% can pull up. Given most oil fields have 20+ patches, it's not really too much until they deplete, and by then the pollution cloud will start to dissipate and the flame turrets won't be firing as much.

Seriously, stop trying to dispute my numbers until you actually playtest them. I have.

bobucles wrote:
You don't need advanced oil processing, but you feel like you're being punished for using basic.
It's not a punishment, it's a fact of resource management.
You're word mining here. The purpose of my statement was to highlight the psychology behind my number suggestion. Regardless of the developer's intent, when the end user feels like something is a punishment, they will try to avoid it. In game theory, developers are encouraged to avoid giving penalties for legitimate gameplay tactics, and instead give bonuses for their alternatives. How you phrase it can mean a lot. In this case, the phrasing is in the numbers displayed on the recipe output, and if you tell a player they're getting 100 oil instead of 110, it feels like a punishment, especially when the 110 has a clearly superior distribution. But if they get the bigger number right from the outset, they won't feel punished. It won't stop them from wanting that 95 oil down the road when they have had time to understand why it's good, but it will stop them from feeling punished right off the bat.

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Re: Remove or tweak heavy oil to solid fuel recipe.

Post by bobucles » Sun May 27, 2018 7:54 pm

Your 6000% figure applies to depleted pumpjacks without speed or productivity modules, the minimum. A rich oil field will generate far more, up to a maximum of 100 crude per second per pumpjack without speed or productivity.
Stop. Please. That's so wrong it hurts.
At 300 oil per second, with 3 flame turrets firing 5% of the time,
Maxed out resources and low biter settings is not balance testing. 9001 space productivity research is not a valid point of view for balance testing either. Try it on a death world and come back when you're ready to apologize.

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Re: Remove or tweak heavy oil to solid fuel recipe.

Post by thereaverofdarkness » Sun May 27, 2018 8:27 pm

bobucles wrote:
Your 6000% figure applies to depleted pumpjacks without speed or productivity modules, the minimum. A rich oil field will generate far more, up to a maximum of 100 crude per second per pumpjack without speed or productivity.
Stop. Please. That's so wrong it hurts.
What I said was factual. You have no provocation to call it wrong. These numbers come from the wiki, independently verified by myself.
bobucles wrote:Maxed out resources and low biter settings is not balance testing. 9001 space productivity research is not a valid point of view for balance testing either. Try it on a death world and come back when you're ready to apologize.
I am playing on a variation of rail world, however I actually turned down the resource settings, and I have rather high biter settings--not death world but not far from it. My starting area is set very small, while death world is set small. Have you played on death world rail world, with double the penalty for destroying spawners? I am right now.

Stop getting emotional about this, and don't ask me to apologize when you don't know how I play.

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Re: Remove or tweak heavy oil to solid fuel recipe.

Post by bobucles » Mon May 28, 2018 3:22 am

Wew. For a moment I thought I was crazy, but then I checked the ACTUAL numbers:

Code: Select all

Pumpjacks process 1.0 times per second
100% yield is 10 oil per process
100% yield is 10 crude/second
3000% yield is 300 crude/second
10 crude transforms into roughly 5 light oil
6000% yield is roughly 300 light oil/second
An early oil base develops <20% productivity research
How do these facts line up with your assertions?
Your 6000% figure applies to depleted pumpjacks without speed or productivity modules, the minimum.
False. Pumpjacks drop to 1/5 yield, or a minimum of 20%. I have seen 5.0/second on depleted super pumps but 2-3/second is more typical. I don't even know what kind of world exists where depleted oil is 6000%.
A rich oil field will generate far more, up to a maximum of 100 crude per second per pumpjack without speed or productivity.
False. 100 crude/pump is the absolute cap and simply doesn't happen until the extreme post game when resources are already irrelevant. Unlimited resources are not a place to discuss the balance of finite bases. Standard oil pump values are 10-20/sec, less after they get used, or maybe 30-40 on extreme resource settings.
At 300 oil per second, with 3 flame turrets firing 5% of the time, you're losing an average of about 45 oil per second to the flame turrets. That's what a single pumpjack running at 450% can pull up.
Deathworld oil spots do not have 450% yield. Deathworld oil deposits start around 80% yield and are lucky to get up to 200% yield, at least for the stage of the game where limited resources are important. The starter oil patch is around 300-500% and a good first deposit is 700%. If you're saying that players should be dumping every single last drop of their oil into very light, intermittent turret use you're quite simply mad and my attempting to knock sense into your head is a waste of time.

So no. Your numbers are catastrophically, almost deliberately wrong. Move your decimal point(or comma) and you might have a real argument. Even if you find the game manageable with such god awful turrets, the simple fact is that those numbers are broken. They are not balanced or fair with the rest of the game.

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Re: Remove or tweak heavy oil to solid fuel recipe.

Post by thereaverofdarkness » Mon May 28, 2018 6:34 am

bobucles wrote:Wew. For a moment I thought I was crazy, but then I checked the ACTUAL numbers:

Code: Select all

Pumpjacks process 1.0 times per second
100% yield is 10 oil per process
100% yield is 10 crude/second
3000% yield is 300 crude/second
10 crude transforms into roughly 5 light oil
6000% yield is roughly 300 light oil/second
An early oil base develops <20% productivity research
How do these facts line up with your assertions?
How do they not? I already stated how much a single pumpjack needs to run a flame turret. You're just giving me the same numbers again.

Code: Select all

An early oil base develops <20% productivity research
What does this assertion have to do with the discussion, and why is it being asserted how much oil you get from an oil field when their size is extremely variable?

thereaverofdarkness wrote:
bobucles wrote:300 light oil per second requires over 6000% of crude yield to keep loaded.
Your 6000% figure applies to depleted pumpjacks without speed or productivity modules, the minimum.
bobucles wrote:I don't even know what kind of world exists where depleted oil is 6000%.
I was talking about your 6000% figure. I thought you meant 6000% of a pumpjack's output (60 pumpjacks). It clearly takes less than this, as you yourself already pointed out that a single pumpjack with a moderately rich amount of oil can run your flame turrets adequately.

bobucles wrote:Deathworld oil spots do not have 450% yield. Deathworld oil deposits start around 80% yield and are lucky to get up to 200% yield, at least for the stage of the game where limited resources are important. The starter oil patch is around 300-500% and a good first deposit is 700%.
Are you only taking the oil in the starting area? I usually don't even take games that have oil that close. I like to fight for my oil. But seriously, you don't even have to enter biter territory before the richness goes higher than that. I just started a deathworld game and my first oil field is 16 patches at combined 1563% yield, but only a bit into biter territory is a 12-patch field with combined 1846% yield. That's barely leaving the starting area, and those numbers are much like I have generally seen in other games.

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Re: Remove or tweak heavy oil to solid fuel recipe.

Post by bobingabout » Tue May 29, 2018 8:30 am

what does this have to do with the heavy oil to fuel block recipe?
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