0.15 Iron vs Copper balance

[Engimage]

Many changes to research in 0.15 have lead to significant Iron vs Copper usage imbalance.

So research and most other stuff now up until endgame does require A LOT more Iron compared to copper. I have 3 times more Iron production (including steel) than copper. This leads to imbalanced outpost needs so you are mostly expanding searching for new iron.

Maybe it is a good time to revise research recipes to include some more copper hungry recipes and maybe revise the iron cost of green circuits?

In Marathon settings 1 green circuit costs 2 iron and 5 copper. This is something able to shift the balance around. But the increased demand for Iron gears and cost of steel negate this.
In Normal green circuits require 1 Iron and 1.5 copper (mostly 1 in endgame with 4 prod3 modules) leaving the game with no ways to balance copper/iron at all.

So Normal settings might really benefit from increasing copper usage of green circuits a bit. Maybe from 3 to 4 copper wires at least with some consideration about iron usage, maybe thinking of decreasing it.
And science packs could include something less iron hungry and more copper hungry earlier than high tech. Consider adding solar pannels maybe?

Btw Filter Inserters, despite of being not needed in mass quantities, made a nice balance for copper/iron as they require pretty many green circuits to build and not that much iron.

[Kelderek]

Well it would help if we could come up with some uses for Copper apart from electricity. When you look at the recipes, pretty much every use of copper relates to electrical use, generation, or transmission. Copper is not used for anything structural. Iron plates have both gear wheels and steel which are used all over the place, but copper plates only have cables and those are fairly exclusive to circuits.

What other intermediate products could be made with copper that could be used in recipes?

One idea would be to change all pipe to copper instead of iron. Copper has better thermal properties so it would make sense in all the pipe related to steam and water. Potable water is nearly always in copper pipe, though our factorio characters don't ever drink anything.

It would also be cool to have a secondary smelting process for copper much like iron has steel, perhaps we could get into things like brass or bronze.

I'm not a big fan of simply increasing copper usage just by changing circuit recipes or raising the number of circuits used in other things. I would rather see some other ideas that add more than just electrical use.

EDIT: here's a list of common copper uses IRL: https://www.thebalance.com/copper-applications-2340111

[Aeternus]

Copper is the main component in electronic circuits - basic 1 (1 iron 1.5 copper) and especially advanced (2 iron 5 copper). Might be a thought to indeed make Advanced Circuits (and Processing Circuits) a staple on the higher research options, or revise the structures used in the research trees to not require so much steel - it's the 5-to-1 ratio of steel that's causing this imbalance.

[BenSeidel]

I agree that early game is very iron heavy, but late game seems to be in a nice place because of the high-tech packs. I quite like it that way. It means that you don't really have to worry about Copper until you start high-tech while making that large iron patch you got worth while. Of course if you have lots of little patches then it makes very little difference as to what you get, because you are going to be making many of them.

The high-tech packs need 15 iron and 47.5 copper, with a battery (1 iron and 1 copper) and blue circuit (24 iron and 40 copper), so it's really copper hungry at 40 iron and 88.5. These are just the raw numbers and the ratio is reduced with productivity modules.

Does anyone have the Copper/Iron ratio for a rocket? With those figures it would be possible to figure out the late game iron vs copper usage.

[Lav]

In 0.14 iron/copper ratio for the rocket was almost 1:1. I don't remember anything related changing in 0.15, so for normal recipe price the ratio should stay roughly the same.

[BenSeidel]

In 0.14 iron/copper ratio for the rocket was almost 1:1. I don't remember anything related changing in 0.15, so for normal recipe price the ratio should stay roughly the same.

Yeah, I'm under the same impression... But I don't want to start putting up some calculations without ensuring that it is correct.

So one thing I did stuff up with the high tech packs is that the iron count does not take into account the iron required to make the sulfuric acid for the batteries or blue circuits... so opps there.

[fbkevy]

I don't agree there is a need to balance iron and copper. Having an imbalance leads to scarity and that leads having to use trains/outposts. There is a greater challenge in managing a single high throughout product and a fleet of trains.

[Ranakastrasz]

Its always been this way, far back as I remember.
Hence, I always make more iron spawn than copper.


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My "Local" mod also makes cables cost 2 copper per set instead of one, which has a huge impact.

[Optera]

In 0.14 my iron/copper ration was around to 2:1 for constantly shooting rockets.
Research in 0.15 will make this ratio considerably worse. A lot of items needed for science packs require iron in some form with little to no copper.

Iron should be removed from some key intermediate recipes like electronic circuits to get a more even ratio with copper.
Other intermediates like Gear Wheels could be made from multiple different materials like copper or plastic.

[BlakeMW]

I quite like the current imbalance.

I did all the maths for the science packs (in 1.15.6) and for research, the iron:copper ratio starts at about 4:1 (75% iron), climbs almost as high as 5:1 at production science (80% iron), then with high tech science drops to 3:2 (60% iron), space science is also approximately 3:2. These ratios are "running weighted averages", that is if you make 1 red,green,blue,grey,purple,gold, and white science pack: you need a 3:2 ratio of iron to copper.

Virtually all infrastructure is iron-biased, until modules, which are about 60% copper. Modules make a useful copper sink and productivity modules allow resource stretching. So I tend to prioritize the placement of productivity modules in iron-rich recipes, like the science packs, iron gears and engines, and de-prioritize in copper-rich, like copper wire. This selectivity in use of productivity modules can largely even out the imbalance.

[Engimage]

I quite like the current imbalance.

I did all the maths for the science packs (in 1.15.6) and for research, the iron:copper ratio starts at about 4:1 (75% iron), climbs almost as high as 5:1 at production science (80% iron), then with high tech science drops to 3:2 (60% iron), space science is also approximately 3:2. These ratios are "running weighted averages", that is if you make 1 red,green,blue,grey,purple,gold, and white science pack: you need a 3:2 ratio of iron to copper.

Virtually all infrastructure is iron-biased, until modules, which are about 60% copper. Modules make a useful copper sink and productivity modules allow resource stretching. So I tend to prioritize the placement of productivity modules in iron-rich recipes, like the science packs, iron gears and engines, and de-prioritize in copper-rich, like copper wire. This selectivity in use of productivity modules can largely even out the imbalance.

Actually when you use productivity modules in green circuits (which you will most likely do) green circuits start consuming iron:copper as 1:1 so you have NO means of shifting balance to copper (in normal). In expensive settings the balance is still strongly shifted.

So I would personally revise green circuit recipe to reduce iron plate consumption. Also I would probably look at battery recipe for the same purpose.

If current balance is not adjusted then map generation should be placing more iron patches over all.

[Xeorm]

Could also make copper ore act like rock where you need 2 ore per plate. Help solidify copper as the "expensive" resource compared to iron. At least resource gathering-wise.

[Aeternus]

Additional option: Since Steel is the big iron hog, why not add a Copper/Iron composite mix that allows you to use Copper to make Steel somehow. Something along the lines of Steel Cooper Composite: Steel + 3 Copper -> (Assembling Machine) -> Steel x2.
This would allow you to convert excess Copper into Steel and save your Iron for gears and such.

Or an iron/stone or steel/stone mix. Or coal, for carbon-steel.
Stone isn't really useful beyond a bit of concrete production, and to get your walls up, but it quickly becomes a "just dump it into landfill" resource. Useful, sure, but could be used for something better.
Coal remains useful in limited amounts once you've switched energy production. You need it for plastic and grenades (military research), but it remains plentiful in my experience. I usually don't even use up my starter area reserve before launching a rocket.

[Lav]

If only the game engine supported material property for game items and buildings.

Then we would've be able to build copper gears, bronze wagons and steel walls freely.

[sparr]

Every level 3 Module consumes 1645 copper, 892.5 iron.

The answer to increasing your copper usage in the end game is to use more beacons and modules.

[Ranakastrasz]

The other solution is to just keep expanding, and grabbing all the iron you need. Sure, you will skip deposits of copper on the way, but so what? Don't mine it if you don't need it.

[Aeternus]

Every level 3 Module consumes 1645 copper, 892.5 iron.
The answer to increasing your copper usage in the end game is to use more beacons and modules.

And shove Productivity 3 modules in all your iron mining facilities? That's a thought too, 'though pollution will be... harsh that way.

[Nasabot]

I agree totally. Wanted to write a thread like this myself.

Iron Consumption needs reduction, copper consumption increase.

I actually play marathon because of this reason, as there are the copper costs more balanced (but still not enough).


What Id change in the normal recipes is this:

Instead of 5 iron Steelproduction requires 4 Iron and 1 or 2 Coal.(+ crafting time Change so its 1:1) <-This adds additional meaningful complexity while also balancing the game.
Green Circuit copper cost more dominant. Maybe 1 Iron + 5 Copper for 2 Green circuits. Something like this.

Also Id like to see the copper cable recipe changed, 1 copperplate for 1 cable, (+ appropriate rebalance of recipes) because: What is the point to make an item "unbeltable" by inflating it? This has no additional gameplayvalue and only limits designpossibilities.

[British_Petroleum]

Devs could just change the map generation so more iron spawns than copper on default settings, unless the rocket is 1:1, then late game copper will be scarce

[Tev]

High tier modules make it almost even. Preferential placement of modules can make any ratio you personally want.

Coal remains useful in limited amounts once you've switched energy production. You need it for plastic and grenades (military research), but it remains plentiful in my experience. I usually don't even use up my starter area reserve before launching a rocket.

Have you actually played 0.15? I consume quite a bit of coal for oil production now. I don't need as much oil, but that happens to be a lot more random, saving me a lot of trouble on deathworld map. Also it enables more preferential module shuffling around as oil doesn't need so many productivity modules so early in the game.