Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

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thereaverofdarkness
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The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

It is an extremely common strategy: when taking land from enemies, setup a row of turrets near their spawners, and setup another row a bit closer, until you have placed the turrets within firing range of the spawners. Common, and highly unpopular. Many players insist that this should not be how the game is played; often players attempt to suggest ways to change the game to make turret creep more difficult, or perhaps make other forms of combat less difficult. But at the end of the day, nobody seems to solve the problem without creating other problems.

I want to write a deeper analysis of why turret creep is so permanently embedded in the meta, and what the game would look like if it wasn't.

The short version is that turrets are stronger than the player. Not only can you have a lot of turrets, but each individual turret is already stronger than the player. A gun turret initially has the same damage and rate of fire as the player with a submachine gun, but more hit points (turret has 400, player has 250). While the player gets tougher with armor, gun turrets' damage goes up faster with research, since every damage upgrade to the player's bullets is applied cumulatively a second time to gun turrets. This was even worse in the past, as gun turrets had a 100% damage bonus, causing them to deal twice the damage of the player with submachine gun even before damage research. It's also worse with laser turrets as those deal damage that is not at all resisted by biters, while the big and behemoth biters strongly resist bullets and shells, and the player has no laser rifle to compensate. The personal laser defense is roughly as strong as a laser turret but unlocked later, and laser turrets have 1000 HP, way more than the player. Flamethrowers make the player extremely powerful relative to other weapons, however even flamethrower turrets have more firepower than the player flamethrower, and at FAR less than a tenth of the fuel consumption. Turret creep is the meta for the core reason that turrets are stronger than the player.

I submit to you that the game in which turret creep isn't the meta is the game in which the player is stronger than the turrets. Consider it: the swarms of biters and spitters are balanced to be fought with turrets strung up at your base. But the player is much stronger than one turret. If an attack hits the base in the vicinity of the player, they can assist the turrets handily and contribute massively to base defense. If the player encounters a stampede of enemies heading for the base, they are not a huge threat for the player can mow them down quickly and handily. But the enemies' bases are more strongly defended. Spawners and worms are balanced to be fought by the player and their arsenal of weaponry, or by the player driving a war vehicle such as a tank. Spawners are hard for turrets to kill; worms destroy turrets like scissors destroy paper. Turret creep is no longer the meta. It might be a valid strategy, but one which is overshadowed by quicker and easier tactics: just run in wearing armor and carrying a weapon. In the late game and against stronger nests of enemies, advanced power armor, energy shields, personal defense modules, and combat robots all contribute further to the player's combat dominance and eliminate the need or want for turret creep every step of the way.

Whether you agree or disagree that a turret creep meta is a bad meta, the fact remains that the meta is defined by relative power: which is stronger, the player or their turrets, is the power meta. I personally feel that turrets being geared for base defense while personal weapons are geared for enemy base attack is a good meta. Therefore I support the change to (slightly) weaker turrets and a (much) stronger player.

- - - - - - - - - -
Here I will detail my plan for balancing the player and the turrets:


Ammo magazine: change all types of magazine to have 20 ammo
Gun turret: 4 shots per second, +50% damage bonus, increase range from 18 to 28 tiles
Bullet damage bonus no longer boosts gun turrets twice
Pistol: 4 shots per second but 100% damage boost
Submachine gun: 20 shots per second
^ Now the gun turrets deal 40% lower base DPS, but have an easier time penetrating tough biter armor. They are also much more ammo-efficient, consuming 80% less ammo. The player consumes ammo at the old rate but deals twice as much DPS.
^ The pistol is still weaker than the submachine gun but has some use as a backup weapon for saving ammo or for getting through biter/worm armor.

Shotgun: double the amount of pellets and increase the spread slightly
Uranium ammo research also unlocks uranium shotgun shells
^ Now the shotgun also deals 2x the DPS but it's also less likely to fail to hit an enemy within its spread range, and it can hit a larger group of enemies at once.
^ In the end-game when the player's submachine gun is absurdly strong with uranium ammo, so, too, is the combat shotgun absurdly strong with uranium shells.

Laser turret: reduce from 3 shots to 2 shots per second, increase range from 24 to 32 tiles
^ Now the laser turret has 1/3rd lower DPS

Flamethrower turret: same fluid consumption but DPS is reduced all the way down to 10% or perhaps lower, and fire lasts three times as long, range increased from 30 to 36 tiles
Flame damage upgrade now also increases flame slowing effect
Handheld flamethrower: cut steel cost of ammo way down, leave fluid cost the same, buff its damage up to what the flamethrower turret originally had
^ Now the flamethrower turret's damage is no longer ridiculously high and better matches its very low fluid consumption. It is now good at creating a sustained damaging and slowing effect on the field and pairs well with other types of turrets.

Rocket launcher: increase range from 36 to at least 44 tiles, and double the base firing speed
^ This allows the player to fire from outside aggro range, getting off a salvo of multiple rockets before being swarmed by enemies. The rocket launcher isn't hugely useful without being able to fire outside of aggro range.
^ When range is much higher than this, sometimes enemies cannot detect the player who is firing at them. I recommend fixing this behavior bug and boosting rocket launcher range to 50-60 tiles.

Grenade: drastically increase damage to make it worth using in combat, from 35 to maybe 100 or more
Cluster grenade: reduce the explosion radius of each grenade to the same as the basic grenade
^ Grenades are popular for removing trees but are far too weak for killing biters or biter bases, and are way too expensive for their pitiful damage. They kill small biters and spitters easily, not because they are a good weapon against small biters/spitters, but rather because small biters and spitters are easy to kill with anything.
^ I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that the individual grenades thrown out by a cluster grenade have a much higher explosion radius than that of a basic grenade. That would explain why, despite them being listed as having the same damage, they kill things far more handily. Probably because their huge explosion radius makes a lot of overlap, and any given target gets hit by several individual grenades at once. With my grenade damage increase, this must be removed.

Poison capsule: DPS unchanged but duration increased from 20s to 60s
Slowdown capsule: area of effect radius increased from 9 to 22, duration increased from 30s to 90s
Slowdown capsule now not only infects each enemy with the slowing factor (lasting 90s), but leaves a cloud which lingers for 90s which will infect any enemy stepping inside of it with a slowing effect that lasts for 90s
Slowdown capsule build cost increased to 5x as high
^ Poison capsule is now weaker relative to the player (because player DPS is greatly increased) but creates a lingering damage field that the player can use to maneuver enemies into the hostile area, or control ground more effectively.
^ Slowdown capsule requires much less time spent throwing capsules down, freeing up the player to focus on fighting the enemies while they are slowed. It also gives the player a lot more room within the cloud to outmaneuver the enemies. Finally the slowdown capsule might get used.

- - - - -
In the following section I will detail changes to the tank and combat robots which are geared less toward direct balance and more toward increasing variety of options, and giving an advantage to players who think strategically.


Combat robots: I propose giving the three types of bots three distinctly different personalities. Firstly, all robots will differ from turrets and enemies in that they will be willing to switch targets before their current target is killed, if another target reaches higher priority on their aggro list.

Defender Robot: surrounds player in a circle and attacks any enemies that get within range, with a preference for fighting anything that is attacking the player. They prefer to gang up on enemies, all attacking the same enemy at once. HP and defense increased somewhat.
Defender robots are a balanced combat robot adding to the player's offense and defense together, and their defensive arrangement frees up the player to focus on attacking the enemy base rather than fending off incoming enemies. Of all three types of combat robot, this one does the best without support from the other types.

Distractor Robot: spreads out in a diffuse pattern over a large area in the vicinity of the player; attacks anything that gets within range but has a strong preference for fighting anything that is attacking either the player or a destroyer robot. Damage reduced by half, but applies an effect to the target that makes them switch away from their current target and onto the distractor robot. Prefers to attack biters over spitters, and spitters over worms, and prefers to attack only one enemy at a time, and one that is not being attacked by any other distractor robots. Distractor robots have their defense increased greatly.
Distractor robots are the most defensive type of robot, not contributing hugely toward offense but being very good at keeping enemies off of the player and preventing them from impeding the player's movement. Distractor robots also work well to protect vulnerable destroyer robots.

Destroyer Robot: flies in a small cloud behind the player; attacks anything that gets into range but hesitates if the target is not already busy fighting something else. Destroyer robots have low defense and high attack, and prefer bunching up on the same target to kill it quickly, with their strongest preference being to kill anything which is attacking themselves or other nearby destroyer robots.
Destroyer robots contribute strongly toward the offensive power of the player's group. They are vulnerable but their flight pattern helps prevent them from taking aggro, instead leaving the player or other types of bots to take aggro instead.



Piercing Cannon Shell: piercing power increased from 300 to 900, now when the shell hits a target, even if the target survives the whole 300 damage, it still only removes 300 piercing power and the shell keeps going with 100 less damage, to hit the next target.
Piercing Uranium Cannon Shell: damage reduced from 600 to 360, only 20% higher than the basic piercing shell, but piercing power increased to 2160.
Both shells: convert the explosive damage into physical damage so that they don't double-dip on damage absorption.
Piercing shells now can penetrate a long line of targets, even very strong targets. This gives them a line-shaped area of effect attack pattern. They also are strong against things which are vulnerable to physical damage.

Explosive Cannon Shell: Remove the 180 physical damage, leaving the 300 explosive damage. Boost the effect radius from 4 to 5 tiles.
Explosive Uranium Cannon Shell: Now deals 360 explosive damage and no physical damage, but with an effect radius of 8 tiles.
Explosive shells still have a small amount of penetration which makes them explode inside a group of enemies instead of at the perimeter. This type of shell has a circle-shaped area of effect attack pattern and is strong against things which are vulnerable to explosive damage.

Now that the piercing and explosive shells are of comparable power, we change their build cost to be more similar.
Piercing cannon shell costs 1 explosive, 2 plastic, and 3 steel.
Explosive cannon shell costs 3 explosive, 2 plastic, and 1 steel.
This increases the price of the piercing shell but leaves the explosive shell at about the same price as before.

Since the damage of the basic shells has not been increased (decreased, especially in the case of uranium shells) despite the player's guns' damage being increased, this means that the player will need to take advantage of the cannon shells' ability to hit multiple targets in order to make them effective weapons. These, paired with the tank's secondary weapons, should make the tank's offensive power worthy of using in combat. Off the top of my head I don't know if this is strong enough, so further buffs to tank shells may be in order. Also, the car and tank should have an equipment grid, with vehicle-specific modules which can do things such as boost armor plating, increase mobility, reduce crash damage, increase storage space, etc. And lastly, the tank's gun should not have a damage bonus but instead should just shoot very fast, obtaining a high DPS at the cost of burning through ammo magazines very quickly.


- - - - - - - - - -
The following section details changes to the enemies:


Small biter: physical resistance added: 2/30%
Medium biter: physical resistance buffed slightly: 4/30%
Big biter: physical resistance buffed slightly: 8/30%
Behemoth biter: physical resistance buffed slightly: 12/30%
Behemoth biter: explosion amount reduction removed

Small worm: physical resistance added: 4/0%
Small worm: fire resistance added: 1/40%
Medium worm: explosion resistance removed
Medium worm: physical resistance buffed slightly: 6/0%
Big worm: explosion resistance removed
Behemoth worm: physical resistance buffed: 15/0%
Behemoth worm: explosion resistance removed
Behemoth worm: range same as before, damage reduced to same as big worm, HP 4x as high, attacks 50% slower than big worm
Worms no longer lead their target but rather they shoot at where it currently is.
^ This makes it easier for the player to dodge their attacks, while turrets are still highly vulnerable to them.

Small spitter: explosion resistance added: 10/25%
Medium spitter: explosion resistance buffed: 20/25%
Big spitter: explosion resistance buffed: 35/25%
Behemoth spitter: explosion resistance buffed: 50/25%

Spawner health increased from 350 to 1000
Spawner physical resistance buffed: 6/30%
Spawner explosion resistance removed
Biter spawner: always spawns biters regardless of evolution level
Spitter spawner: always spawns spitters regardless of evolution level
Huge enemy bases with many spawners will tend to all or mostly have the same kind of spawners, and bases near them will tend to be similar. Some areas on the map will have all biters, some all spitters, and some areas will have a mixture.


- - - -
Lastly, player armor will have its explosion resistance increased, especially at the low end, mainly to compensate for the grenade damage increase.
Light Armor: explosion resistance buffed: 20/25%
Heavy Armor: explosion resistance buffed: 30/35%
Modular Armor: explosion resistance buffed: 45/40%
Power Armor Mk. I: explosion resistance buffed: 60/45%
Power Armor Mk. II: explosion resistance buffed: 80/50%



What we see from the above changes is that biters are resistant to physical damage, especially bullets and shotgun shells; however they are vulnerable to explosives. Spitters, on the other hand, are resistant to explosives, especially small explosives like grenades; however they are vulnerable to physical damage such as bullets or shells. Worms are especially resistant to bullets, however with no percentage resistance they are quite vulnerable to piercing cannon shells. They are also quite vulnerable to all types of explosive, but are resistant to fire. Spawners also resist physical damage (in particular, basic firearm magazines) but are vulnerable to explosives.

In the early game, the player will not be prepared to face any but the very weakest of enemy bases, however they will be more than prepared to defend their base as well as themselves while exploring terrain. Gun turrets with yellow ammo will be nigh useless against spawners, however on the flip side, once medium biters begin invading, it will be more important for the player to switch to piercing ammo than it is for gun turrets to do so. The strategy for fighting biter bases as early as possible will be to bring a shotgun and grenades. The grenades deal good damage to spawners and worms, while the shotgun can mow down groups of biters or spitters. Any medium biters can be killed with grenades as well; care should be taken not to hit the player character, but Heavy Armor will provide decent protection as long as hits are minimized.

Turrets have less DPS now, but are also cheaper to fire and have longer range. In the early game when you're first setting up your defense, you can focus on covering a lot of ground with a few turrets, and not worry about scaling them up until incoming attacks demand it. No longer do you need tons of turrets just because your wall is long: tons of turrets are only needed to ward off heavy attacks from enemies. Also, now that turret range is so much greater than spitter range, turret attrition due to spitter attacks should now only happen when there is insufficient turret power to ward off the enemies. What used to happen was the gun turrets in the late game, even armed with piercing magazines, had way more DPS than laser turrets, but their range and hit points were so pathetic that they kept getting killed by the big spitters. Now with their range increase, in the late game when you arm them with uranium magazines, they will remain an extremely competent addition to your defenses, and their small hit point pool will not be a major problem.

Flamethrower turrets deal way less damage with my suggested changes than in the current game. Currently, flamethrower turrets deal such ridiculously high damage that it obsoletes every other turret class and makes behemoth enemies go down relatively easily. They also spend a ridiculously low amount of ammo doing it. But with my changes, flamethrower turrets are still cheap to operate but now are less powerful on their own and work best in tandem with other turrets. Laser turrets are a good combo with them as both of these turrets have high range, easy logistics, and the enemies have no defense against them. Gun turrets are also useful if you're willing to use them, as they have higher damage than laser turrets, especially against spitters. Gun turrets become REALLY powerful when you get uranium ammo--with my changes the gun turret dominance is now more dependent on uranium ammo, but they also don't use up that ammo as quickly.

As the player approaches the mid-game they can use a combat shotgun for cheap ammo-efficient combat power as well as combat robots for enhanced defense. My changes do not amplify the damage of combat robots, but instead improve their defensive characteristics. Further in the mid-game you can get modular or power armor and begin using exoskeletons or energy shields in combat as well as the rocket launcher and flamethrower, poison and slowdown capsules, and distractor and destroyer robots. The rocket launcher deals heavy explosion damage to a single target and is thus very useful for taking out spawners and worms from a distance. Simply fire a salvo of rockets into the base and then mow down the retaliating enemies with your shotgun, submachine gun, or grenades. Spawners and worms resist fire but they don't move, so laying fire on top of them can be a good move. You can also deal tremendous damage to biters and spitters by laying down a wall of fire and standing behind it. Just be careful not to stand in your own flames. You can throw down a slowdown capsule to gain bonus mobility against the enemies, which pairs especially well with exoskeletons for your speed, or even flamethrower to slow them down further. Once you have the enemies and worms in a base killed, you can lock it down with poison capsules while you focus on taking down the spawners. Another trick is to enter the base surrounded by distractor and defender robots, and once you lock the base down (and they begin to expire), launch distractor and destroyer robots to replace them.

Alternatively, you can assault enemy bases with a tank. The piercing shells are great against worms and the explosive shells are great against spawners, but either works for either really. And when you have a huge swarm of enemies chasing you, you'll find that the biter crowd forms a shape ideal for piercing shells, but are weak to explosive shells; meanwhile the spitter crowd forms a shape ideal for explosive shells but they are weak to piercing shells. This means that for the lazy player, either shell works for either enemy type, but a skilled player can work hard to get more out of their ammo. The tank flamethrower (in vanilla) doesn't leave ground flames but has very high DPS which is surprisingly good at freeing the tank from a big swarm of big biters if you get surrounded. Another trick to try in the tank is to drive around the base and launch grenades or cluster grenades into the base. You can also create large areas of poison or slowdown clouds and drive the tank around in them to make it easier to evade all of the enemies who will chase you, freeing up time to fire at the spawners and worms.

In the late game, other than simply destroying enemy bases from afar with artillery or nukes, the player can wear very durable armor and load up with uranium and flamethrower ammo, and cluster grenades. These paired with personal laser defense and a big swarm of distractor and destroyer robots can be used to take out huge enemy bases by hand easily and quickly.



- - - - - - - - - -

In conclusion, with the changes I suggest or anything similar, players would not feel pressured to resort to turret creep tactics in order to deal with biter bases. Not only is turret creep far less effective, but the player is now far more capable of assaulting enemy bases directly and without the aid of turrets. This will make most players enjoy combat more, or at least despise it less. The chore of clearing biter bases may not be hugely easier than before, but players will now feel less confusion or apprehension toward the task.
Last edited by thereaverofdarkness on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by valneq »

What? I only use turret creep for the first couple of bases, because of the lack of options. Turret creep is just incredibly slow and tedious compared to other methods that you unlock later on, especially with military science and chemical+military. Also, driving around with tanks and spidertrons, and throwing around poison capsules and shooting rockets is so much more fun.

I don't see any reason to change anything about the vanilla balance in this regard. The core gameplay loop of Factorio is not competitive. So judging one or the other strategy as being "good" or "bad" is just unnecessary.

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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by ickputzdirwech »

I am not prepared to haggle over every detail of you suggestion, there might be some good points in there, but here is my general opinion on this.

I think that it is crucial that turrets are more powerful than the player. This is a game about automation. You should automate combat to. Build transport belt lines to deliver ammo to your gun turrets, have robots repair your walls and set up artillery turrets to expand your territory while you build the rocket silo. Incentivising the player to go to the frontline whenever their base gets attacked in order to “help the turrets out” would be a massive step in the wrong direction.

As for the turret creep: It’s not the only option you have right now. It’s not even the best. There are already weapons for the player that are way stronger than any turret. Mainly the spidertron and nuclear bombs. It’s not my favourite argument but: If you don’t want to use, don’t use it.
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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by jodokus31 »

This is a whole overhaul and not only a way to prevent turret creep. Maybe you want to write a mod for people to try
thereaverofdarkness wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:03 am
I submit to you that the game in which turret creep isn't the meta is the game in which the player is stronger than the turrets. Consider it: the swarms of biters and spitters are balanced to be fought with turrets strung up at your base. But the player is much stronger than one turret. If an attack hits the base in the vicinity of the player, they can assist the turrets handily and contribute massively to base defense. If the player encounters a stampede of enemies heading for the base, they are not a huge threat for the player can mow them down quickly and handily. [...]
It think, this is already the case for early game, when you get grenades. Until evolution 40% you can help with defence quite impactful to save on ammo and also can clear bases without turret creep. (heavy armor and fish recommended, Stronger explosives research for medium biters)

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into the "turret creep balance" thread.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by 5thHorseman »

I will never understand the aversion to turret creep. If you hate it so much don't do it. If you hate that it's a valid strategy well... I don't care unless you somehow convince the devs of that.

I turret creep up until I get the tank. Then I tank-ram most things in sweeping passes until I unlock power armor 2 when I just use a ridiculous amount of personal laser defense and shields to walk through bases like a god.
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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by Yoyobuae »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:55 am
It think, this is already the case for early game, when you get grenades. Until evolution 40% you can help with defence quite impactful to save on ammo and also can clear bases without turret creep. (heavy armor and fish recommended, Stronger explosives research for medium biters)
Or use land mines. They insta-kill small and medium biters without any upgrades. They are also way cheaper to make than grenades.

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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by jodokus31 »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:30 am
jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:55 am
It think, this is already the case for early game, when you get grenades. Until evolution 40% you can help with defence quite impactful to save on ammo and also can clear bases without turret creep. (heavy armor and fish recommended, Stronger explosives research for medium biters)
Or use land mines. They insta-kill small and medium biters without any upgrades. They are also way cheaper to make than grenades.
Yes, but you need explosives (oil) and military science, which is not that early in the game. Military2 can be the first green science (reachable after ~30 - 60 min. playtime in default settings)

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by mrvn »

Turrets are an essential part of base defense. As your base grows you can't run and repel every alien attack. Also attacks are ment to become too strong for the player to dispatch on their own. You are ment to build turrets and walls as defence. As such turrets have to be strong enough to dispatch alien attacks, which are the same as what happens when you build turrets near a spawner.

So if you make turrets weaker to make creep impossible then you also break base defenses. Not going to work out.

On the other hand if you make the player stronger than he just walks into the alien nest and kills everything in sight without danger.

Both turrets and players are already pretty well balanced. You can't really mess with them to fight turret creep. What does that leave?

The game could not allow building near spawners forcing you to walk in and kill the spawners. There are mods that do that either by simply failing the build or having creep around the spawners where you naturally can't build.

Or turrets could take time to activate allowing bitters to attack and destroy them before they get a single shot of. But that doesn't really help. It just means you have to start your turret creep further out so the first turrets you build are outside the aggro range. Then as you creep the existing turrets defend the newly build ones and you can creep forward till you are in range of the spawners.


Personally I think there is nothing wrong with turret creep. Which worms that have more range than turrets (especially with mods) and with different resistances (again especially with mods) turret creep becomes rather expensive (you loose a lot of turrets or repair packs to get into range and kill larger nests) and/or you have to build up the right mix of turrets (and different ammo) and research turrets with enough range to do significant damage before being destroyed.

In the end the reason turret creep works is the fact that quantity has a quality of its own.

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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by Yoyobuae »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:02 am
Yes, but you need explosives (oil) and military science, which is not that early in the game. Military2 can be the first green science (reachable after ~30 - 60 min. playtime in default settings)
I'm pretty sure it's easy enough to have oil setup by the time medium biters are around.

Before that it's just small biters which are easy to deal with non-upgraded grenades.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Koub »

On default settings, maybe, but on harder settings, like Death mode + marathon, from what I4ve seen in some topics on this forum, it's not that easy.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by jodokus31 »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:51 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:02 am
Yes, but you need explosives (oil) and military science, which is not that early in the game. Military2 can be the first green science (reachable after ~30 - 60 min. playtime in default settings)
I'm pretty sure it's easy enough to have oil setup by the time medium biters are around.

Before that it's just small biters which are easy to deal with non-upgraded grenades.
Koub wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:59 pm
On default settings, maybe, but on harder settings, like Death mode + marathon, from what I4ve seen in some topics on this forum, it's not that easy.
Indeed. I play Deathworld Marathon. If I rush Military 2 for grenades, I had them roughly at 1:45, Evolution 10%. Now at 4:30 i have oil but still no sulfur or explosives. Evolution is at 26%, so medium biters and small spitters are there. Evolution would much be higher, if had cleared more spawners.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Yoyobuae »

Well, obviously non-default settings is a different story. If the post had mentioned the comment was for meant for a Deathworld+Marathon run then I wouldn't have replied like that.

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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by LuxSublima »

ickputzdirwech wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:34 am
I think that it is crucial that turrets are more powerful than the player. This is a game about automation. You should automate combat to. Build transport belt lines to deliver ammo to your gun turrets, have robots repair your walls and set up artillery turrets to expand your territory while you build the rocket silo. Incentivising the player to go to the frontline whenever their base gets attacked in order to “help the turrets out” would be a massive step in the wrong direction.
+1

I agree strongly that any need to force players to go to the front lines in an ongoing way would be a huge mistake. You have to go help out front lines IF you haven't yet adequately automated them. If you don't have strong enough turrets that's not reasonable.

I used to be a massive turret creep player, because for some reason I was averse to the early game weapons like poison/slowdown capsules and defenders. Maybe the improved art finally got me to use them. :) But once I did, wow, I was so pleasantly surprised. In honor of 1.0 I did a new playthrough and completed all research without ever feeling a need to turret creep. I'd take some along with me to make a temporary defensive fallback point if I needed, but for most of the game it was just defender robots, poison capsules, slowdown capsules (also a flamethrower and machine gun just in case). They are amazingly powerful when used carefully and very satisfying with the 1.0 graphics and sounds.

Honestly the weapon balance in 1.0 is very good. I find combat more satisfying now than ever before.

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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by LuxSublima »

thereaverofdarkness wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:03 am
I want to write a deeper analysis of why turret creep is so permanently embedded in the meta, and what the game would look like if it wasn't.
...
In conclusion, with the changes I suggest or anything similar, players would not feel pressured to resort to turret creep tactics in order to deal with biter bases. Not only is turret creep far less effective, but the player is now far more capable of assaulting enemy bases directly and without the aid of turrets. This will make most players enjoy combat more, or at least despise it less. The chore of clearing biter bases may not be hugely easier than before, but players will now feel less confusion or apprehension toward the task.
I'm going to respond to this just from my own experience having put 1300+ hours into the game and being a massive turret creep addict for the first 1200 hours.

I never felt "pressured" to resort to turret creep - I think it was just an "easy" strategy simply because it doesn't require much thought or planning. But I always had the nagging suspicion there was a cheaper, better, more enjoyable way to clear enemy bases if I'd just give it a try.

Sure enough, 1.0 came out, I started a new playthrough and finally gave the early capsules a try: poison, slowdown, and defenders.... Wow! I was completely hooked and never felt the need for another turret creep for the rest of the playthrough. They are very powerful and work very well together, but they definitely require more care and planning. I also realized that while turret creep was "easy" it was also unnecessarily wasteful - losing a turret full of ammo meant a massive loss of resources, and it was common back when that was my only option for forcing my way past a big base.

I like the balance the way it is and hope they don't significantly change it. While I wanted to focus less on combat and more on the factory itself, turret creep was my go-to. It fit my playstyle. When I wanted to focus more on being better at combat, the already available options showed me a strategy that was far more fun and less wasteful than turret creep. The game as it is fit both the ways I wanted to play. Now that this playthrough has completed all the finite research, having such powerful turrets on my very widespread front line is absolutely essential. I love watching swarms of behemoths mowed down while I'm half a world away. :)

Turret creep may be common with players not because of poor weapon balance, but because this game is primarily about automating factories and so it attracts people who are more interested in that. If it attracted more combat oriented players, I think you'd find people playing more with the IMO already excellently balanced options. The fact that the game already suits both approaches so well is, to me, strong evidence that the balance doesn't need to be changed.

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Re: The real reason that turret creep is a common strategy

Post by Hannu »

LuxSublima wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:29 pm

I used to be a massive turret creep player, because for some reason I was averse to the early game weapons like poison/slowdown capsules and defenders.
Good to know that combat bots may be useful again. I like them much more than laser defence, because they are expendable and production need to be automatized.
One problem is that the balance between weapons have changed more rapidly during development process than my habits. Sometimes devs have nerfed some weapons or made some of them so much better that others have become obsolete. I have learnt that something, like combat bots, poison capsules or flame throwers are useless and forgot them. I am too build oriented to investigate such possibilities after all new releases if turret creep is familiar and effective. Cost is not significant issue with normal settings. If your early midgame factory produces a full yellow belt of iron one turret with 50 basic ammo magazines (40 + 200 iron plates) is produced in 16 seconds.

Those mid game weapons do not help in first attacks. They need chemical science which opens also tanks, which are effective against medium and large enemies but do not need advanced combat tactics or fast reactions and mouse control of teenager.

I agree that Factorio is exceptionally well balanced game. There is many valid strategies in all phases of game. Extremists may complain that their favorite style is not perfect but most modifications of balance would harm much more players than give advantage.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by AmericanPatriot »

Zequez wrote:
Sun May 11, 2014 7:07 am
It's just too easy! Place electric poles connected to you base until you reach the biters. Place 32 laser turrets in a second. Wait until the turrets are done with the massacre.
It's just too easy! Walk toward biter base. Launch nuke. Run in circles and repeat.
:D

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by jodokus31 »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:56 am
Zequez wrote:
Sun May 11, 2014 7:07 am
It's just too easy! Place electric poles connected to you base until you reach the biters. Place 32 laser turrets in a second. Wait until the turrets are done with the massacre.
It's just too easy! Walk toward biter base. Launch nuke. Run in circles and repeat.
It's not easy to get the nukes ;)
BTW: In 2014, nukes weren't a thing in factorio.

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