Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Postby Ranakastrasz » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:30 pm

Teurlinx wrote:Fully upgraded combat shotgun with piercing shells does a decent job, if you can fully hit them. When they are chasing I usually resort to throwing grenades as fast as they go to thin the pack a little. Also very hand to clear a path through the trees. :lol:


Yep, Grenades don't have a speed cost and work at the same time as using a weapon. Just make sure you bring 2-3 stacks.

Also Cluster grenades are horrifically powerful, nothing short of a behemoth can handle them. It still takes 3 or so of them to take down big biters, but that is to take down all 20 of them chasing you, minus one or two which shotgun murders.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby nljr » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:17 pm

This seems like an easy fix: Newly installed turrets need 30 seconds to boot and run a full calibration. Could throw in some test shots at nearby ground/trees during the boot sequence to show that it's still figuring out what to do.

Turret rushing depends on being able to throw up an effective automated military *fast*. That's what combat bots are for.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby whitecold » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:32 am

What makes the turret creep strategy the go-to strategy for me is the lack of other good options that don't involve the player. I don't want to drive around in a tank, I want to send off my tank squadron to clear out nests and focus on building a proper supply line for them. If I have to shoot my weapon, I feel I am doing something wrong.
The same with bots, they are not permanent, they don't allow you to build up an army, and they are hideously expensive, as well as much later available than turrets. By the time I come to destroyer bots, I'd like to be able to order attacks from the map view already, and turrets+roboports+radar are currently the only way to do it.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Mendel » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:19 am

whitegold: have you tried this? https://mods.factorio.com/mods/kyranzor/robotarmy

Just asking because based on everything you just said, this would probably suit your playstyle very well enough to justify installing a mod.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby whitecold » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:57 pm

@mendel
I'm trying to get a hang of the AAI programmable vehicles, but of course those are way too complicated to ever be included in vanilla. However what I think should somehow be included are options in vanilla to fight without the player being present. Number of players is one resource that cannot be increased in SP, and player time is valuable.
Furthermore, the player cannot be lost, if he dies, it is game over, and loosing turrets should also be a rare occurrence. A decent defense should take care of itself and leave the player free to do more interesting things than playing fire brigade, so the only resource cost is ammo, equipment is a one time expediture. However offensive bots/tanks/cars may well be considered expendable, making it necessary to actually build weapon/vehicle assembly lines, as currently nothing but turrets and ammo is really necessary to automate.
If players want to fight with their character, they should be able to, but it should be an option, not a necessity in the later game.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Mendel » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:29 am

Well maybe artillery train will do the magic for vanilla if and when they implement that.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Deadly-Bagel » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:11 pm

I'm not sold on the artillery train. It's going to be on a fixed rail so not like it can go clear biter nests for you, I guarantee it won't be enough to protect a train from ploughing into a swarm and getting destroyed (even ignoring the performance impact it would have on your train network with every train lugging around another carriage), the better solution would be trains kill biters on-collision, so then what? Some sort of long range cannon? But then why does it have to be on rails? We're only going to end up with the same problem as turret creeping where you need to build some rails and drop one of these wagons on it to clear out an area, so they would be better off implementing a static version instead. They could do both but why are they marketing it as an artillery train?
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby whitecold » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:14 am

My thought about the train is that if I can lay down a track, I can also lay down walls beside it, and turrets at each power pole with FARL (or blueprints) This also blocks biters from reexpanding, so it doesn't solve the problem
I tried out the robot army mod, and while it kinda goes in the right direction, the spawn-and-ignore mechanic is not really my cup of tea. I'd like to have to build resupply (fuel/ammo/repair) bases that keep your army in shape. Some middle ground between AAI and robot army would be my choice.

Introducing autonomous tanks however likely requires some further rebalancing. I managed to get 6 tanks hunting (and returning to base to rearm) with AAI Programmable Vehicles, and they flatten pretty much everything. The most damaging thing is them bumping into each other.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Postby jerocom » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:07 pm

just_dont wrote:I would like to someday see the big gap between ammo-based turrets and electrical turrets removed.

At the moment, ammo-based turrets are simply worthless. They require MORE setup (automatic ammo feeds, etc), but they become technologically obsolete even vs. medium biters.
I would like to see flamethrower turrets (great vs. hordes of smaller biters, require flamethrower ammo obviously) and some ammo-based late-game turrets (high caliber chainguns, HE rounds?). The last one should be useful vs. big biters and MORE powerful than an electric turret (as it'll require an ammo feed line). It could use a different kind of ammo (not usable by player) to ensure some sort of proper damage vs. armor balance.

PS: About the "turret creep" strategy. Devs are aware of that, and they do want to implement some sort of a limiter on such strategy.

Have you tried uranium ammo in experimental version?
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Vladmirangel » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:50 am

Based on the games Starcraft and UFO Aftermath, Why not allow the Spawners to just make that organic floor creep around their base? with this indicator you can code the creep to disallow the player from placing any buildings within that territorry. the floor creep would also just go away slowly once the spawners are gone.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby jeanmarc » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:29 pm

Vladmirangel wrote:Based on the games Starcraft and UFO Aftermath, Why not allow the Spawners to just make that organic floor creep around their base? with this indicator you can code the creep to disallow the player from placing any buildings within that territorry. the floor creep would also just go away slowly once the spawners are gone.


This would cause expansion to be tedious and time-consuming, but it would be a great idea if removing the creep quickly would require using the flame-thrower turrets.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby n7m6e7 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:50 pm

Turrets should be used to defend an area, not offensively.

I would simply suggest giving regular turrets a "boot up" time delay when placed, and give laser turrets the same delay, plus a minimum range, like the flame turrets have.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Koub » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:17 pm

n7m6e7 wrote:plus a minimum range, like the flame turrets have.

This is not really consistent with lasers. A laser should be able to shoot to point blank targets (as turrets currently do).
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby n7m6e7 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:41 pm

Koub wrote:
n7m6e7 wrote:plus a minimum range, like the flame turrets have.

This is not really consistent with lasers. A laser should be able to shoot to point blank targets (as turrets currently do).


Im thinking mechanic-wise. With turrets, you have the hassle of a setting up an ammo-feed system, but the advantage of being able to shoot biters that are attacking it. The laser turrets have become no-brainers. Set it down, run power, done. So for ease of use, they should have some kind of penalty.

Maybe even swap the ranges and power of lasers and bullets, as im pretty sure a .50 cal bmg (or even just a 7.62 nato) has better range than a 2.5 megawatt laser, and chain-guns deliver damage a lot faster than lasers.

But back to the "turret creep" issue, i'd just set up some kind of delay, where the turret cant fire till its been in place for 5 seconds, or set them both up to not be able to shoot biters that are directly attacking it. Players would have to set up a wall, set up the turret, and hope the wall survives long enough to start shooting
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby JohnyDL » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:43 pm

n7m6e7 wrote:But back to the "turret creep" issue, i'd just set up some kind of delay, where the turret cant fire till its been in place for 5 seconds, or set them both up to not be able to shoot biters that are directly attacking it. Players would have to set up a wall, set up the turret, and hope the wall survives long enough to start shooting

All you do there is frustrate and slow people who use turret creep, without adding anything to compensate for it and over all you won't stop it anyway. For me I don't see anything wrong with it, it's a perfectly valid strategy.

My opinion is don't make nerfs and ruin something in the game that people use and enjoy but add buffs to get people to use other techniques, maybe lasers get a chain boost damage if one can shoot into another that shoots into a third etc.. that shoots at the enemy, put in a maximum range for that chain boost and the chained turrets suffer an overload for 0.5 seconds, would bean long strings of lasers on a wall section make the wall's defences weaker requiring the player to make wall defences need to be more varied to get the most out of the weaponry. Meanwhile providing certain types of enemies (maybe worms or bases that're static and wouldn't affect the defensive uses of the laser) a buff to make them harder to destroy by laser during turret creep use.

The result would be that long laser chains are more powerful but they're limited to wall constructions for best effect. Concentrating lasers too close together during turret creep reduces their effectiveness because the first biter gets vaporised but it's friends get 0.5s to do some damage which might damage more turrets or power poles, and the current versions aren't quite as effective against the stronger enemies that don't come after the player directly. Requiring the player to change up their strategies.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Koub » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:14 pm

I like the idea of building animation, like in some STR, but for the looks. Adding something to punish people who want to turret creep just because you personnally don't like it seems kinda meh.
If you don't like turret creep, don't use it :)
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby JohnyDL » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:40 am

JohnyDL wrote:
n7m6e7 wrote:But back to the "turret creep" issue, i'd just set up some kind of delay, where the turret cant fire till its been in place for 5 seconds, or set them both up to not be able to shoot biters that are directly attacking it. Players would have to set up a wall, set up the turret, and hope the wall survives long enough to start shooting

All you do there is frustrate and slow people who use turret creep, without adding anything to compensate for it and over all you won't stop it anyway. For me I don't see anything wrong with it, it's a perfectly valid strategy.

My opinion is don't make nerfs and ruin something in the game that people use and enjoy but add buffs to get people to use other techniques, maybe lasers get a chain boost damage if one can shoot into another that shoots into a third etc.. that shoots at the enemy, put in a maximum range for that chain boost and the chained turrets suffer an overload for 0.5 seconds, would mean long strings of lasers on a wall section make the wall's defences weaker requiring the player to make wall defences need to be more varied to get the most out of the weaponry. Meanwhile providing certain types of enemies (maybe worms or bases that're static and wouldn't affect the defensive uses of the laser) a buff to make them harder to destroy by laser during turret creep use.

The result would be that long laser chains are more powerful but they're limited to wall constructions for best effect. Concentrating lasers too close together during turret creep reduces their effectiveness because the first biter gets vaporised but it's friends get 0.5s to do some damage which might damage more turrets or power poles, and the current versions aren't quite as effective against the stronger enemies that don't come after the player directly. Requiring the player to change up their strategies.


Edit: oops why did I do that nods please delete
Last edited by JohnyDL on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby n7m6e7 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:40 pm

JohnyDL wrote:
n7m6e7 wrote:But back to the "turret creep" issue, i'd just set up some kind of delay, where the turret cant fire till its been in place for 5 seconds, or set them both up to not be able to shoot biters that are directly attacking it. Players would have to set up a wall, set up the turret, and hope the wall survives long enough to start shooting

All you do there is frustrate and slow people who use turret creep, without adding anything to compensate for it and over all you won't stop it anyway. For me I don't see anything wrong with it, it's a perfectly valid strategy.

My opinion is don't make nerfs and ruin something in the game that people use and enjoy but add buffs to get people to use other techniques, .

The main issue, is once you get a personal roboport, turret creeping is an extremely easy technique.

Koub wrote:If you don't like turret creep, don't use it :)



At a certain evolution point, it becomes the ONLY way to effectively take out biter nests. If other methods are buffed to the effectiveness of "turret creeping” then biters would no longer be a threat, and the only way to balance it, would be to buff the biters more....creating a situation where you best research military science from minute one, or the biters will @#*$ you over in the first hour.

Nerfs are a necessary evil. And by nerfing turret creep, you can better balance the biters, and players now have a choice of running in with guns and armor, loading up on rockets, using combat robots, building tanks, or burning them to the ground....as opposed to "just creep...."

Also, personally (feeling based opinion incoming) I don't see turret creep as a valid strategy. You have a limited supply of weapon slots, and ammo, so you can't just god-mode your way through biter bases. Your armor has limited battery, limiting your auto laser, and sheild capacity. Your tank has limited weaponry, and they even nerfed the flamethrower so taking out biters wouldn't be a no-brainer. Turret creeping (especially with laser turrets ) is spamming as many guns as you like, filling them with effectively unlimited ammo. Increasing your "power" by a factor equal to the number of turrets you plop down.

I'm all for making a "Frontline" and pushing it towards the biters, so you can run in, and finish the job... But imagine if the biters just spawned 8 spawners in your base. Would that be fair?
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby quyxkh » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:05 pm

An activation delay would be ineffective. Drop a turret just outside biter-response range, wait out the delay, drop your next nearby but just inside response range, lather, rinse, repeat.

If you want scarier biter behavior, get Rampant. They're not "clever girl" smart, but they'll mess you up pretty bad if you dis them.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:38 pm

quyxkh wrote:An activation delay would be ineffective. Drop a turret just outside biter-response range, wait out the delay, drop your next nearby but just inside response range, lather, rinse, repeat.

If you want scarier biter behavior, get Rampant. They're not "clever girl" smart, but they'll mess you up pretty bad if you dis them.


It should still be a viable strategy to build a well defended outpost then lure biters there so that you can go up against a less defended base. What shouldn't be viable is turrets vs worms and spawners.

A warmup after placing solves this but I recall some dev post or blog saying it wasn't a way they wanted to go. I remember the reasoning making sense but I don't recall what it was. Or maybe that was about the "zerg ground" style of preventing building placement.
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