fast underground belt to cheap?

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gheift
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fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by gheift »

Currently we have the following costs for each belt:
  • basic transport belt: 1.5 iron-plates
  • fast transport belt: 11.5 iron-plates
  • express transport belt: 21.5 iron-plates, 2 lubricant
  • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates → 2.9 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates → 9.6 iron-plates/tile
  • express underground belt: 137 iron-plates, 4 lubricant → (22.8 iron-plates + 1.4 lubricant)/tile
This looks a little bit inconsistent, specially if you use fast transport belts for longer tracks, it is cheaper to replace them with fast underground belts.

In my opinion, the costs for the fast underground belts should be doubled. This raises the cost of express underground belts by around 60 iron-plates and results in a price of about 32 iron-plates/tile, which is much better than the nearly identical cost, which they have now. Additionally I would change the amount of lubricant which is needed for them to 16.

Regards,
Gerhard

bobucles
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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by bobucles »

But double cost makes it inconsistent with everything else. The only problem is that underground is cheaper than above ground, right?
fast transport belt: 11.5 iron-plates
fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates → 9.6 iron-plates/tile
So bump up the gear cost from 20 to 25 or 30 gears. Easy.

Frightning
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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Frightning »

Express underground belts do not use Lubricant in 0.12.35-0. They cost 138 Iron plates, not 137. The rest of your numbers are correct (sans iron/tile for ex. ug. belts and presence of lub/tile).

Regarding the issue you've raised: I knew there was a reason I felt that Fast transport belts were too expensive for what they did (double speed in one belt should still be more than twice the cost, e.g., should be more than 3 iron/tile. Perhaps if recipe became 2 Basic transport belts+5 Iron gear wheels -> 2 Fast transport belts, then it would be 6.5 Iron/tile; and with current Express transport belt recipe, that would become 16.5 iron/tile and still 2 lube/tile, and costs for underground belts remain unchanged). I've also always found it odd that Express underground belts don't use Lubricant when the other Express stuff does (maybe this was addressed in 0.13?)

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Zeblote »

Frightning wrote:Express underground belts do not use Lubricant in 0.12.35-0
And? The current version is 0.13.15 and they do cost lubricant.

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Frightning »

Zeblote wrote:
Frightning wrote:Express underground belts do not use Lubricant in 0.12.35-0
And? The current version is 0.13.15 and they do cost lubricant.
The current stable release is 0.12.35-0.

0.13.15 is the current experimental release.

Helps to disambiguate if you specify which you are referring to (hence I specified that what I was saying was true in 0.12.35)

gheift
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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by gheift »

gheift wrote:Currently we have the following costs for each belt:
  • basic transport belt: 1.5 iron-plates
  • fast transport belt: 11.5 iron-plates
  • express transport belt: 21.5 iron-plates, 2 lubricant
  • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates → 2.9 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates → 9.6 iron-plates/tile
  • express underground belt: 137 iron-plates, 4 lubricant → (22.8 iron-plates + 1.4 lubricant)/tile
With the newest 0.15.7 patch it gets even worse:
  • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates for 6 tiles→ 2.9 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates for 8 tiles → 7.1875 iron-plates/tile
  • express underground belt: 137 iron-plates, 4 lubricant for 10 tiles→ (13.7 iron-plates + 0.4 lubricant)/tile
For fast and express underground belts it now much cheaper to use underground belts than to use the normal ones. I would realy like to see an increase of the underground belt costs.

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Artman40 »

I agree. Putting eveything underground isn't aesthetically pleasing either. See pipes.

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by kovarex »

gheift wrote:
gheift wrote:Currently we have the following costs for each belt:
  • basic transport belt: 1.5 iron-plates
  • fast transport belt: 11.5 iron-plates
  • express transport belt: 21.5 iron-plates, 2 lubricant
  • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates → 2.9 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates → 9.6 iron-plates/tile
  • express underground belt: 137 iron-plates, 4 lubricant → (22.8 iron-plates + 1.4 lubricant)/tile
With the newest 0.15.7 patch it gets even worse:
  • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates for 6 tiles→ 2.9 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates for 8 tiles → 7.1875 iron-plates/tile
  • express underground belt: 137 iron-plates, 4 lubricant for 10 tiles→ (13.7 iron-plates + 0.4 lubricant)/tile
For fast and express underground belts it now much cheaper to use underground belts than to use the normal ones. I would realy like to see an increase of the underground belt costs.
Oh, snap, I need to fix it fast before we start another release :)

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by credomane »

Quick make the belts 5,8,11! This would be ideal, IMO. To allow for this:
Image


gheift
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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by gheift »

kovarex wrote:
gheift wrote:
gheift wrote:Currently we have the following costs for each belt:
    • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates → 2.9 iron-plates/tile
    • fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates → 9.6 iron-plates/tile
    • express underground belt: 137 iron-plates, 4 lubricant → (22.8 iron-plates + 1.4 lubricant)/tile
With the newest 0.15.7 patch it gets even worse:
  • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates for 6 tiles→ 2.9 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 57.5 iron-plates for 8 tiles → 7.1875 iron-plates/tile
  • express underground belt: 137 iron-plates, 4 lubricant for 10 tiles→ (13.7 iron-plates + 0.4 lubricant)/tile
For fast and express underground belts it now much cheaper to use underground belts than to use the normal ones. I would realy like to see an increase of the underground belt costs.
Oh, snap, I need to fix it fast before we start another release :)
With the newest 0.15.8 patch it gets better, thanks for the fast change. But since I made a mistake for the express transport belts, its still cheaper to build express underground belts than normal express transport belts (mentioned by KerbalFactorioLeague on reddit and by neoc here):
  • basic transport belt: 1.5 iron-plates
  • fast transport belt: 11.5 iron-plates
  • express transport belt: 31.5 iron-plates, 20 lubricant
  • basic underground belt: 17.5 iron-plates for 6 tiles→ 2.9 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 97.5 iron-plates for 8 tiles → 12.1875 iron-plates/tile
  • express underground belt: 257 iron-plates, 40 lubricant for 10 tiles→ (25.7 iron-plates + 4 lubricant)/tile
[/list]

I suggest the following costs for the underground belts:
  • basic underground belt: 6 belts + 4*2 iron-plates (tunnel) + 2 iron-plates (in/output)
    = 6 basic transport belts + 10 iron-plates (tunnel)
    = 19 iron-plates
    → 3.16 iron-plates/tile
  • fast underground belt: 2 basic underground belt + 30 gears (upgrade transport belt) + 4 iron-plates (stronger tunnel) + 2 fast transport belts (longer underground belt) + 2*3 iron-plates (additional-tunnel) + 2 iron-plates (stronger in/output) = (19 + 60 + 4 + 23 + 6 + 2) iron-plates
    = 2 basic underground belts + 2 fast transport belts + 30 gears + 12 iron-plates
    = 114 iron-plates
    = 8 fast transport belts + 22 iron-plates (tunnel)
    → 14.25 iron-plates / tile
  • express underground belt: 2 fast underground belts + 80 gears (upgrade transport belt) + 160 lubricant + 6 iron-plates (stronger tunnel) + 2 express belts (longer underground belt) + 2*4 iron-plates (additional-tunnel) + 2 iron-plates (stronger in/output) = (114 + 160 + 6 + 63 + 8 + 2) iron-plates + 200 lubricant
    = 2 fast underground belts + 2 express belts + 80 gears + 16 iron-plates + 160 lubricant
    = 353 iron-plates + 200 lubricant
    = 10 express belts + 38 iron-plates (tunnel)
    → (35.3 iron-plates + 20 lubricant)/tile
Kind regards,
Gerhard
Last edited by gheift on Sat May 06, 2017 2:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Optera
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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Optera »

I'd make recipes use 1 belt/underground tile + some extra gears wheels. Balancing normal belts would automatically balance all underground as well.

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Lav »

What worth is price per tile anyway? Even now many underground belts are not used for maximum possible distance, and with increased distances for reds/blues the difference between maximum and average distance will be even greater.

For as long as UG belt cost is higher per tile than normal belt of the same type, I'm fine with it.

And it's not fast UG that's too cheap - it's fast surface belt that's overpriced. An almost 8x increase of cost for 2x speed gain is a bit too much. Make it 6x and everything will even out.

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by FrodoOf9Fingers »

Honestly, I think that the underground express belts are too expensive now. Sure, many people want longer distances, but I just need to jump over a belt while maintaining speed. 80 gears to jump 1 space (not including the nerf to the red underground)?

Also, some of my favorite plans that fill blue belts are -very- VERY expensive now with the jump from 60 to 120 gears per underground tunnel (plus other costs). I would prefer it to be cheaper, I have yet to find a case where I need a longer belt.

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Lav »

I'll reiterate my idea from another thread.

1. Keep underground belts 5 tiles long and calculate their price accordingly.
2. Allow red underground belts to go double the distance (up to 9 tiles) but consume 2 pairs of underground belts if distance exceeds 5 tiles.
3. Allow blue underground belts to go triple the distance (up to 13 tiles) but consume 2 pairs of UG belts for distances exceeding 5 tiles, and 3 pairs for distances exceeding 9 tiles.

This will keep belt prices manageable from production standpoint, allow longer underground stretches for higher-tier belts and charge proportionally for that, while not horribly overcharging the players for the crime of trying to jump a single tile with a blue UG belt.

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Re: fast underground belt to cheap?

Post by Jarin »

Lav wrote:I'll reiterate my idea from another thread.

1. Keep underground belts 5 tiles long and calculate their price accordingly.
2. Allow red underground belts to go double the distance (up to 9 tiles) but consume 2 pairs of underground belts if distance exceeds 5 tiles.
3. Allow blue underground belts to go triple the distance (up to 13 tiles) but consume 2 pairs of UG belts for distances exceeding 5 tiles, and 3 pairs for distances exceeding 9 tiles.

This will keep belt prices manageable from production standpoint, allow longer underground stretches for higher-tier belts and charge proportionally for that, while not horribly overcharging the players for the crime of trying to jump a single tile with a blue UG belt.
+1. Seems like a solid solution to me.

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