Gun turrets working without eletricity

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TN_Creator
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Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by TN_Creator »

Hi,

I didn't play the game for long yet, but those magical gun turrets that work without any power source feel weird.
I understand that it would make them less usefull when compared to laser turrets, but right now it feels unbalanced the other way.
Shouldn't they have a really low electricity requirement?

As an example, the level new hope 3 can be completed in a bunch of minutes by simply using the turrets and ammo you get at the beginning, and with a small bit of micro. It felt wrong.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Koub »

The thing is you need at least some way to defend your base even in case of power shortage. Laser will not work without current, but I think it's OK for gun turrets (I agree, not realistic, but acceptable gameplay wise).
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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by YunoRaptor »

They do consume a resource for their continued operation though: bullets.
Unlike most things built in factorio, bullets are irretrievably lost after one use.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Lallante »

Could make two versions - one needing coal the other electricity?

It annoys me too that something so powerful can be built entirely unsupported (bullets are cheap and a stack of 100 lasts a very, very long time - a furnace will got through 10 stacks of coal before a gun turret goes through 1 of bullets)

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by korda »

Laser turrets are already easier to use. Main advantage of normal turrets is IMHO the fact that they can be easily used to provide temporary protection even if you don't have something to support them.

Also: conveyor belts say hi

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Adil »

Lallante wrote:bullets are cheap and a stack of 100 lasts a very, very long time
Nope they're not, single item costs a steel plate and is slow to create even not considering the steel creation. And while they provide higher dps, grey biter will soak three magazines before going down even with all upgrades. Thus it's quite expensive compared to free laserbeams.
Not to mention that the turret itself is at risk of not lasting longer than the bullet stack due to having quite low health.
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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Lallante »

I think gun turrets are nicely balanced and laser turrets are pretty OP.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Hexicube »

Koub wrote:The thing is you need at least some way to defend your base even in case of power shortage. Laser will not work without current, but I think it's OK for gun turrets (I agree, not realistic, but acceptable gameplay wise).
Perhaps they should have a decently large power storage and a small but constant drain? Something like 1MJ storage and 20kW drain? That'd allow it to function fine during a power outage, but gets rid of turret creep and no running cost when biters aren't around (they should be using power to scan the area).

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by korda »

Hexicube wrote:
Koub wrote:The thing is you need at least some way to defend your base even in case of power shortage. Laser will not work without current, but I think it's OK for gun turrets (I agree, not realistic, but acceptable gameplay wise).
Perhaps they should have a decently large power storage and a small but constant drain? Something like 1MJ storage and 20kW drain? That'd allow it to function fine during a power outage, but gets rid of turret creep and no running cost when biters aren't around (they should be using power to scan the area).
If power cost is 20kW you can creep with one panel per 3 turrets...

Also if cost is so low it will be more annoyance than actual gameplay benefit, in fact turrets would have power drain just for the sake of it being bit more realistic. If that's enough to give them that cost then other items like belts should have the cost too.... so meh, leave those turrets alone

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Hexicube »

korda wrote:
Hexicube wrote:
Koub wrote:The thing is you need at least some way to defend your base even in case of power shortage. Laser will not work without current, but I think it's OK for gun turrets (I agree, not realistic, but acceptable gameplay wise).
Perhaps they should have a decently large power storage and a small but constant drain? Something like 1MJ storage and 20kW drain? That'd allow it to function fine during a power outage, but gets rid of turret creep and no running cost when biters aren't around (they should be using power to scan the area).
If power cost is 20kW you can creep with one panel per 3 turrets...

Also if cost is so low it will be more annoyance than actual gameplay benefit, in fact turrets would have power drain just for the sake of it being bit more realistic. If that's enough to give them that cost then other items like belts should have the cost too.... so meh, leave those turrets alone
Having to mix turret and panel placement is a lot harder than spamming a bunch of turrets, bearing in mind you'll have to place a power pole to connect the turrets. Either way, it makes it harder to use a strategy which is arguably broken.

You could use blueprints, but you can do that already with laser turrets and they have the advantage of not needing ammo when placed.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by korda »

Hexicube wrote:Having to mix turret and panel placement is a lot harder than spamming a bunch of turrets, bearing in mind you'll have to place a power pole to connect the turrets. Either way, it makes it harder to use a strategy which is arguably broken.

You could use blueprints, but you can do that already with laser turrets and they have the advantage of not needing ammo when placed.
I believe that turret creep shouldn't be fixed by making turrets harder to use to defend your base :|

Best thing to make turret creep harder would be some kind of deploy time for turrets so you have to wait before they can start to shoot.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Hexicube »

korda wrote:
Hexicube wrote:Having to mix turret and panel placement is a lot harder than spamming a bunch of turrets, bearing in mind you'll have to place a power pole to connect the turrets. Either way, it makes it harder to use a strategy which is arguably broken.

You could use blueprints, but you can do that already with laser turrets and they have the advantage of not needing ammo when placed.
I believe that turret creep shouldn't be fixed by making turrets harder to use to defend your base :|

Best thing to make turret creep harder would be some kind of deploy time for turrets so you have to wait before they can start to shoot.
20kW is an incredibly small price to pay per turret (the specific value is up for debate though), and chances are you'll already have power poles in place for the inserters that put ammo in the turrets.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by korda »

Hexicube wrote:20kW is an incredibly small price to pay per turret (the specific value is up for debate though), and chances are you'll already have power poles in place for the inserters that put ammo in the turrets.
So why introduce it then? I mean, it won't really make turret creep much harder (only a bit) and won't influence power production in meaningful way. It will however mean that you can't put some turrets as a emergency for what-if-they-come-from-this-way situation unless you will provide power. Minor annoyance, but still annoyance.

Turret creep should be resolved in a better way that affects only that tactic.

So where is real gameplay benefit? Where is something that would actually improve our experience, make game more interesting and deeper? It would be there just for the sake of being bit more 'realistic', like other stuff in this game wouldn't already work using magic...

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Hexicube »

korda wrote:
Hexicube wrote:20kW is an incredibly small price to pay per turret (the specific value is up for debate though), and chances are you'll already have power poles in place for the inserters that put ammo in the turrets.
So why introduce it then? I mean, it won't really make turret creep much harder (only a bit) and won't influence power production in meaningful way. It will however mean that you can't put some turrets as a emergency for what-if-they-come-from-this-way situation unless you will provide power. Minor annoyance, but still annoyance.

Turret creep should be resolved in a better way that affects only that tactic.

So where is real gameplay benefit? Where is something that would actually improve our experience, make game more interesting and deeper? It would be there just for the sake of being bit more 'realistic', like other stuff in this game wouldn't already work using magic...
What would you even defend that lacks power? The only situations that are adversely affected by such a change would be turret creeping and a mining outposts that uses burner mining drills, burner inserters, and trains. Even in that bizarre scenario (which would only happen in a burner challenge or to prove a point), you'd already have a fuel supply for all 3 aspects of that outpost; it wouldn't exactly be difficult to siphon off a small amount for a couple boilers to power the entire defensive grid.

Why should there be a gameplay benefit in a balance change to attempt to prevent arguably exploitative gameplay? If you really want to get into it, you're forced to experiment with other combat solutions instead of the does-it-all turret creep method, which is a more enjoyable experience in my opinion. 90% of the turrets I place, as well as turrets I see placed in playthroughs I watch, they're either in or within a few tiles of a power grid that would easily support them.

Additionally, how about you suggest an alternative solution to the problem? The only one I see is a deploy time, which would be about as effective as my suggestion due to the time taken to place a solar panel and power pole, would add a lot more effort on the coding side, and would be uncharacteristic of how building works in every other situation.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Koub »

To prevent turret creep : make it that alien spawners also spawn some kind of goo like zerg hives produce in starcraft, on which you can't build. Lots of it, so that you can't get anywhere close enough to destroy the spawners or worms with turrets.
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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by The Phoenixian »

Hexicube wrote:
korda wrote:
Hexicube wrote:20kW is an incredibly small price to pay per turret (the specific value is up for debate though), and chances are you'll already have power poles in place for the inserters that put ammo in the turrets.
So why introduce it then? I mean, it won't really make turret creep much harder (only a bit) and won't influence power production in meaningful way. It will however mean that you can't put some turrets as a emergency for what-if-they-come-from-this-way situation unless you will provide power. Minor annoyance, but still annoyance.

Turret creep should be resolved in a better way that affects only that tactic.

So where is real gameplay benefit? Where is something that would actually improve our experience, make game more interesting and deeper? It would be there just for the sake of being bit more 'realistic', like other stuff in this game wouldn't already work using magic...
What would you even defend that lacks power? The only situations that are adversely affected by such a change would be turret creeping and a mining outposts that uses burner mining drills, burner inserters, and trains. Even in that bizarre scenario (which would only happen in a burner challenge or to prove a point), you'd already have a fuel supply for all 3 aspects of that outpost; it wouldn't exactly be difficult to siphon off a small amount for a couple boilers to power the entire defensive grid.

Why should there be a gameplay benefit in a balance change to attempt to prevent arguably exploitative gameplay? If you really want to get into it, you're forced to experiment with other combat solutions instead of the does-it-all turret creep method, which is a more enjoyable experience in my opinion. 90% of the turrets I place, as well as turrets I see placed in playthroughs I watch, they're either in or within a few tiles of a power grid that would easily support them.

Additionally, how about you suggest an alternative solution to the problem? The only one I see is a deploy time, which would be about as effective as my suggestion due to the time taken to place a solar panel and power pole, would add a lot more effort on the coding side, and would be uncharacteristic of how building works in every other situation.
This doesn't do anything to prevent turret creep or turret spam though. If anything, gun turrets are harder to creep and spam because you need to insert ammo, which either adds a deploy time to put the ammo in for a temporary setup, or takes up space for a permanent setup.

In contrast, by the time you have lasers you also have big and medium poles. With a temporary setup around a large pole a single action can feed 8 turrets which can be placed after the pole is down, whereas with ammunition feeding 8 turrets requires 8 actions, all of which must be made after each of the turrets you're feeding ammo into is down.

For a permanent setup, medium poles have a range of 3, long enough for a 2 thick wall even before you compromising spacing to deal with the pole and a 4 thick wall in total from a single layer thick of power poles. Ammo on the other hand requires at least one inserter for, and adjacent to, every gun turret. The most efficient ammo setups will have far more space dedicated to ammo supply than even a very inefficient laser setup will have dedicated to power poles.

I don't see how adding a power requirement to gun turrets changes anything.

EDIT:
As far as alternatives go:

More varied enemy damage resistances and immunities. If enemies require multiple defense types to properly counter, then the task of turret creeping becomes more difficult. If one enemy type burrows and needs the concussive damage of explosives or mobility to deal with (It goes shai hulud... but not as quickly as you can walk away); one's a wall of meat, and thus has enough water (and specific heat) in it to be very laser resistant; and one outranges gun turrets, then the job of turret creep is much harder.
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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Hexicube »

Koub wrote:To prevent turret creep : make it that alien spawners also spawn some kind of goo like zerg hives produce in starcraft, on which you can't build. Lots of it, so that you can't get anywhere close enough to destroy the spawners or worms with turrets.
As long as it fades after destroying bases and doesn't cause UPS issues, I'm all for it.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Koub »

Hexicube wrote:
Koub wrote:To prevent turret creep : make it that alien spawners also spawn some kind of goo like zerg hives produce in starcraft, on which you can't build. Lots of it, so that you can't get anywhere close enough to destroy the spawners or worms with turrets.
As long as it fades after destroying bases and doesn't cause UPS issues, I'm all for it.
Yes that was the idea, should have mentionned that too :).
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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Berjiz »

Adding creep blocking building near the spawners would also prevent tactics with building pipes around them to prevent enemies from spawning.

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Re: Gun turrets working without eletricity

Post by Jakkar »

I'd like to register my own frustration with this subject, in addition to the thoroughly discussed conveyor belt issue.

Factorio's atmosphere really does matter to me, in terms of the quality of my experience. The peace and relaxation of constructing a fresh base, the tension as you realise your pollution cloud has expanded significantly, the curiosity/sense of discovery as you expand your knowledge of the technologies available, the hostile lifeforms, and the surrounding area. It isn't just about the optimisation of systems, at least not for everybody.

I have absolutely no problem with a futuristic wanderer of other worlds wearing a backpack that can construct advanced machinery - it makes an in-fiction sense, and follows the path of the excellent Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander gameplay models. I just don't understand how I can have a motion-tracking, friend-recognising high RPM autonomous machine gun built using nothing but a chunk of iron, a round chunk of iron and a chunk of another metal, unless that's normal for the magical rules of the setting - which in this case, it isn't.

If making concrete, something the ancient Greeks were doing on a massive scale over three thousand years ago in our world, is an advanced process requiring a stage-two furnace-made substance and two other mined substances combined in a robotic factory... Why are semi-intelligent robots with guns something we can make using a wood-handled pickaxe?

So I'd like to add my voice, in the hope that 1) These contradictions are the consequence of early dev, placeholder systems that have been left in during ongoing development, and 2) That the developers intend to return to these fundamental features during a later pass of enhancements and bring them into alignment with other gameplay systems.

I'd personally recommend that conveyor belts be introduced to gameplay a little later, requiring attachment to a steam engine not for electrical power but for motive force - i.e. belts and wheels, /or/then later/ requiring the placement of a single electrically powered motor for each section of interlinked conveyors. I'd be a lot happier if they only moved when attached to these systems, whereas back on topic ballistic gun turrets meanwhile should need green chips and motors to have any ability to move and track targets.

Hoping.

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