Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

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maxim13
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Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by maxim13 »

With 18kW energy consumption it's the cheapest inserter for consume kJ per swing:

base (yellow) inserter use 13kw * 72 (ticks per swing)/ 60 = 15.6 кJ

long-handed: 18kw * 50 (ticks per swing)/ 60 = 15.0 кJ

fast: 46kw * 26 (ticks per swing)/ 60 = 19.933 kJ

But long-handed work faster and do more work than base inserters..

I suggest change energy consumption for long handed inserters to 24kw
so it's energy consumption per swing would be approximately the same as fast inserts: 24kw * 50 (ticks per swing)/ 60 = 20.0 кJ

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Another option could be to slow it down some, like 60 ticks per swing. Still faster than yellow, but now it’ll consume an energy level in between the two.

Either way, I do agree to the concept that it should be made a bit more expensive on energy consumption.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:42 pm
Another option could be to slow it down some
No way, slowing down will break many setups. If you use beacons, you need large throughput. There are cases players already need two or three long inserters to fill assembling machine.
None in the game can be slowed down without breaking things.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:17 am
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:42 pm
Another option could be to slow it down some
No way, slowing down will break many setups. If you use beacons, you need large throughput. There are cases players already need two or three long inserters to fill assembling machine.
None in the game can be slowed down without breaking things.
Considering all the OCD posts I’ve been seeing lately about wanting this or that changed to meet their “perfect” requirements, I can’t help but say “wah” to this. :P

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

This is not related to OCD, just all beaconed setups (nice and ugly) would fail. Not a "vah".

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:47 pm
This is not related to OCD, just all beaconed setups (nice and ugly) would fail. Not a "vah".
Except they won't "fail". They just won't work as optimally as they do now. To "fail", the LH inserter would have to be changed in a way that it could no longer insert the items at all, or perhaps be slowed down by an order of magnitude that the setups are idle close to or more than half the time.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:55 pm
They just won't work as optimally as they do now.
If 8-cylinder car has 7 cyl working, I will not say "that's fine, just does not work optimally". Am I OCD?

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by ptx0 »

wow, no need to argue. this will probably never be done. let them suggest it all they want. just because it's here, doesn't mean it will be considered.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:09 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:55 pm
They just won't work as optimally as they do now.
If 8-cylinder car has 7 cyl working, I will not say "that's fine, just does not work optimally". Am I OCD?
You know, that's actually a thing. :P However, it's not the same.

But yeah, this isn't worth arguing over. I thought the :P at the end of my post would convey the message, but I honestly did not mean my "wah" post as an attack. I like the idea of slowing them down by a small margin, you don't. But it won't cause the setups to "fail". That's a gross overexaggeration.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by Koub »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:09 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:55 pm
They just won't work as optimally as they do now.
If 8-cylinder car has 7 cyl working, I will not say "that's fine, just does not work optimally". Am I OCD?
For a more accurate illustration, it's like the GPU manufacturers who sell partly defective high end GPUs as fully functional lower tier GPUS after deactivating the part that doesn't work.
The final product still works, but not up to the optimal performance the top tier GPU would have if there were no bad parts.

At no point the devs have advertised the absolute optimal assembling machine/beacon layout was guaranteed to be feedable fast enough to function at full speed.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

Koub wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:25 pm
For a more accurate illustration, it's like the GPU manufacturers who sell partly defective high end GPUs as fully functional lower tier GPUS after deactivating the part that doesn't work.
No. It's like you have CPU with 8 cores and after upgrade there are 6 cores left.
No, still wrong example. Imagine you have a house with electric cables rated for 20kW. But today our universe got different physics, and your devices need 30kW, and you cannot reuse the same cables, otherwise you will catch a fire. Now you need additional cables in every single room.

This is not a real issue if you live in a garage, or in a warehouse, and there already are 146 cables everywhere. How about penthouse? You do not want additional cables here.
I build large and compact faltories with adusted ratios (and yes, they look nice, at least for me). There is no single tile for additional belt. This is how I play, and I would be forced to restart.

Yes, I don't believe this will happen, I just like explaining things not obvious for other players :)

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:32 pm
No, still wrong example. Imagine you have a house with electric cables rated for 20kW. But today our universe got different physics, and your devices need 30kW, and you cannot reuse the same cables, otherwise you will catch a fire. Now you need additional cables in every single room.
No, that's still wrong. Things wouldn't catch fire and destroy everything. They simply would not be able to run at full load. Everything would be a little slower. And it'd be 24kW (+20%).

All this change would mean is that the setups where you are already maxed out would simply not be able to output as fast anymore. Everything would still work. Assuming, of course, that there aren't other options to get the belts using LH in closer for a standard fast to deal with.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:37 pm
Things wouldn't catch fire and destroy everything. They simply would not be able to run at full load. Everything would be a little slower. And it'd be 24kW (+20%).
100% is a requirement. Every setup has full compressed blue belt(s) on its output, this is a requirement in my game. Let's imagine a groom dressed up with a costume finished at 80%. WTF, right? It seems my game style is different than yours :)


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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:38 pm
Well, you can get that by expanding the factory by 20%. ;) :D
You mean, no compressed belts? Sounds like crap :D
I'm engineering a wedding factory, not a
bad_word
factory 8-)

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by ptx0 »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:44 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:38 pm
Well, you can get that by expanding the factory by 20%. ;) :D
You mean, no compressed belts? Sounds like crap :D
I'm engineering a wedding factory, not a
bad_word
factory 8-)
sounds like your fault was using long handed inserters to compress a blue belt. besides, how many people tune a build to the speed of the inserters? usually you tune to the speed of the belts, and inserters are capable of doing more.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

ptx0 wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:05 pm
sounds like your fault was using long handed inserters to compress a blue belt. besides, how many people tune a build to the speed of the inserters? usually you tune to the speed of the belts, and inserters are capable of doing more.
Supercompact designs sometimes require unusual approaches. If production requires many different materials, this may become a true puzzle.
Your playstyle is different, right?

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

coppercoil wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:05 pm
sounds like your fault was using long handed inserters to compress a blue belt. besides, how many people tune a build to the speed of the inserters? usually you tune to the speed of the belts, and inserters are capable of doing more.
Supercompact designs sometimes require unusual approaches. If production requires many different materials, this may become a true puzzle.
Your playstyle is different, right?
Hey, btw, would you be willing to share a BP of the layout you don't think could be better compacted etc? I'd primarily like to get a visual on what you're looking at, but I also wanted to do up a quick test mod and verify the effect, maybe even see if there's another approach that could solve it.

And, umm...
coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:44 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:38 pm
Well, you can get that by expanding the factory by 20%. ;) :D
You mean, no compressed belts? Sounds like crap :D
I'm engineering a wedding factory, not a
bad_word
factory 8-)
...no. I meant you can expand the size of your setup by 20% (ie, if you have 10 assemblers, add 2 more) to make up for the 20% throughput loss to regain fully compressed belts.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:01 pm
Hey, btw, would you be willing to share a BP of the layout you don't think could be better compacted etc?
Violet science 600 spm, this setup was pretty challenging.

JPG

You can see I have few additional rules: design must be slim, material input is strictly on the one side, and I never ever take or place items on an underground belt or splitter.


...no. I meant you can expand the size of your setup by 20% (ie, if you have 10 assemblers, add 2 more) to make up for the 20% throughput loss to regain fully compressed belts.
I cannot expand because there is no single spare tile.

EDIT: I just found that red inserters may be not a bottlenectk for this particular setup. This is just example of a factory that cannot be easily expanded (e.g. if stack inserters would be slowed down).

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by ptx0 »

coppercoil wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:19 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:05 pm
sounds like your fault was using long handed inserters to compress a blue belt. besides, how many people tune a build to the speed of the inserters? usually you tune to the speed of the belts, and inserters are capable of doing more.
Supercompact designs sometimes require unusual approaches. If production requires many different materials, this may become a true puzzle.
Your playstyle is different, right?
we've been over this before. vanilla doesn't have that requirement. if you want a "true puzzle", how about you play the game without asking for more energy consumption to suit an arbitrary reason?

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