productivity 1 speed penalty is too harsh

[unhott]

4% prod, -15% speed
6% prod, - 15% speed
10% prod, -15% speed

If a player puts 3 prod 1's into a refinery, they'll have 12% productivity at a cost of -45% speed (and + 120% energy consumption) -- they would have to basically double their number of refineries to achieve the same net amount of production, and that would mean a quadrupling of their power consumption. For a 'free' 12%.
I think it makes more sense to have the speed penalty be (-1.5)* prod bonus such that the end game result is the same, but it scales enough to make them worth it earlier on.

4% prod, -6% speed
6% prod, - 9% speed
10% prod, -15% speed

Now it would be 12% productivity at a cost of -18% speed.

I still don't know if this would convince me to use level 1s at any point ever, but for people who want to learn about their use once they unlock them I don't think they should be instantly penalized for not breaking out a spreadsheet.

[bobucles]

But the module is incredibly cheap and powerful. It finds good use even in speed runs where players waste as little as possible.

[Serenity]

You can use 2 productivity modules and a single speed module 1 to compensate.

One SM1 is even enough to almost make up the penalty of 3 PM3 (in an Assembler 3)! Overall output is only reduced by 5%

[nafira]

Tier 1 productivity module needs around 250 plates produced by electric furnace to be refunded, meanwhile a tier 3 PM needs 5k500 plates produced to be refunded.
So it's not "free 6%" per module, since you need a lot more to produce a tier 3 PM.

Here is the math for building Tier 3 productivity modules :

10 Tier 1 PM // 5 Tier 2 PM // 2 Tier 3 PM ==> 2 PM Tier 3 /minute

Tier 1 consumes : 5 green 5 red
Tier 2 consumes : 5 red 5 blue
Tier 3 consumes : 5 red 5 blue

So you need :
17 Assemblers
10*5 green /min (50)
10*5+5*5+5*2 red /min (85)
5*5+5*2 blue /min (35)

And blue = 1 red for 10 green so ..
Input needed for 2 PM Tier 3 :
400 green/min
120 red/min

Compared to the 20 green and 20 red to obtain 4 PM Tier 1, it's kinda cheap.

[bobingabout]

I've been through this before, and after lots of calculations, the short answer is...
it looks wrong on the surface, but the numbers mean you actually have a reason to aim for MK3 other than just more productivity.

[unhott]

My point: prod 1's have the SAME speed penalty as prod 3's for some arbitrary reason. It is more annoying to try and remove and replace prod 1's later than it is to bother using them in the first place. Additionally, if you tried to make a build early on involving prod 1's you'd have to increase the quantity of machines by factors of:

Number prod 1's: Number of additional machines to produce at the same rate as an array of unmoduled machines, taking into consideration speed penalty and production bonus --> Energy consumption increase to get the same rate of production
1: +13% --> +58%
2: +32% --> +138%
3: +62% --> +256%
4: +115% --> +459%


Because of this, for a majority of players they're not worth using. I've only heard anyone ever recommend using them for labs, but that only makes sense there because the labs are so cheap to make it's the rate of science pack production that's the limiting factor, plus labs can only take 2 modules. In any other situation they do more harm than help, especially to unassuming new players.
Overall, to me, it just feels like a bad, uninteresting mechanic and everyone should just beeline to 3's.

[Zavian]

My point: prod 1's have the SAME speed penalty as prod 3's for some arbitrary reason. It is more annoying to try and remove and replace prod 1's later than it is to bother using them in the first place. Additionally, if you tried to make a build early on involving prod 1's you'd have to increase the quantity of machines by factors of:

Number prod 1's: Number of additional machines to produce at the same rate as an array of unmoduled machines, taking into consideration speed penalty and production bonus --> Energy consumption increase to get the same rate of production
1: +13% --> +58%
2: +32% --> +138%
3: +62% --> +256%
4: +115% --> +459%

You can use the new upgrade planner to upgrade modules.

I consider productivity module 1s to be worthwhile for some assemblers despite the -15% speed penalty. eg labs, yellow and purple science, green + blue circuits.

The extra energy use is a valid concern, which is one reason why you might not want to add modules to every assembler, but appropriate use of productivity 1 modules can reduce your net energy consumption by reducing the number of miners/assemblers needed to produce the input ingredients.

Eg consider https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... -pack:r:45 . Now add 2 productivity 1 modules per yellow science assembler to get https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... pack:pe:pe. Net energy use goes down. Total number of assemblers needed goes down. (You need 2.3 more yellow science assemblers, but you save 1.1 blue circuit assemblers, 2.4 red circuit assemblers, 1.6 green circuit assemblers, 3.1 copper wire assemblers, 10 miners (iron, copper and coal) etc. With savings like that, the extra couple of assembly machines for yellow science isn't a reason to avoid adding productivity 1 modules.

One alternative I often use is to upgrade from blue assemblers to yellow assemblers + 3 prod modules + 1 speed module for a 40% increase in production output (compared to the same number of blue assemblers) along with the extra productivity. (5 yellows assemblers each with 3 productivity modules + 1 speed modules has exactly the same net production as 7 blue assemblers, so you can also do that upgrade without increasing total output, if you want to keep the same science output for a while).

[Nefrums]

Prod modules when used correctly should reduce the number of assemblers you need.

Consider this example,. You make 60 ultiity sci a minute:
Using assembler2s without modules. -> 107 assembler2s.
If you put prod1s in the assemblers making sci. -> 102 assembler2s.

[BlueTemplar]

Don't forget that while the -15% speed and (+XX% power) apply to that specific machine,
the +4% prod applies to every single machine up the chain !

[unhott]

All of these points are valid-- they are worthwhile for the labs and the expensive science packs-- but again that is for players who have already busted out the spreadsheets and found the special places where they work out to have a net benefit.

Every benefit mentioned above using speed 1's would still exist. I still don't see a need for 15% speed penalty. I think the speed penalty is so harsh it discourages their use, or punishes unwitting players. Modules are fun, I think this would be a solid way to make them more generally useful and, by extension, more fun to play with.

[SyncViews]

4% prod, -15% speed
6% prod, - 15% speed
10% prod, -15% speed

If a player puts 3 prod 1's into a refinery, they'll have 12% productivity at a cost of -45% speed (and + 120% energy consumption) -- they would have to basically double their number of refineries to achieve the same net amount of production, and that would mean a quadrupling of their power consumption. For a 'free' 12%.

All of these points are valid-- they are worthwhile for the labs and the expensive science packs-- but again that is for players who have already busted out the spreadsheets and found the special places where they work out to have a net benefit.

Every benefit mentioned above using speed 1's would still exist. I still don't see a need for 15% speed penalty. I think the speed penalty is so harsh it discourages their use, or punishes unwitting players. Modules are fun, I think this would be a solid way to make them more generally useful and, by extension, more fun to play with.

The point is the less resources needed as inputs. You use productivity on say circuits and that means less iron mines, less copper mines, less plastic, less coal, less oil cracking, less oil refining etc. for the same output. Having to add some extra assemblies for that production step is not a big deal, space is cheap as are the buildings themselves. This can be especially useful for say oil if playing on a map that doesn't have vast amounts easily accessible at that point.

If there wasn't a speed penalty, I wouldn't even need to think much about how it impacts supply and if I need more (sure inputs would backup if not modified, but that is not really an issue to worry about except a small % of build efficiency).

I am not sure what the net power impact is at the various production steps, power isn't really a big factor in Factorio right now past the early game where maybe the first few coal fields mean a limited mining rate and some care of total use.

EDIT:
And to look at it from another side, what exactly does a speed module get you? Not much except a lot of expense other than for depleted oil wells.

I can always build twice the assemblers/refineries/etc. instead of say a +100% speed, and that is generally cheaper and more power efficient than the speed modules. Mostly only beneficial in beacons in conjunction with productivity. The need to reduce things into logistically efficient layouts is mostly a very late game UPS concern.