0.17 Chemical science pack recipe

[leadraven]

Hello, factorians!

Recently here were topics about Production (viewtopic.php?t=65846) and Utility (viewtopic.php?t=67307) science packs in 0.17.

This time I would like to state my thoughts on Chemical science pack.
In my oppinion, upgrade from red-green science to blue one is the hardest technological leap during main progression.
Basic oil setup requires :

• Pumpjack outpost
• Refineries
• Chemical plants
• Storage tanks
• Pipe spaghetti
• Long-range delivery (train/pipe/belt)

It already almost doubles factory complexity and size. But on top of that player have to set up Red circuit production, slow and very expensive recipe. As if this is not enough, here comes Engine : even slower recipe with steel. As a final nail, 24s crafting time of science pack itself. Slowest recipe of all science packs.

Summarizing, I see following imbalances :

• After Blue science being automated, purple and yellow aren't very challenging. It is difficulty spike.
• Red circuit alone brings more then enough complexity into recipe. All other ingredients must bu trivial (solid fuel fits very good).
• Why Blue science recipe takes so much time? This 24s are very out of place.
• I think Chemical science doesn't need steel.

If player has automated Military science first, it is a little easier : he already run steel into science factory. But I wouldn't take it into account.

In short, I don't like engine in Chemical science pack. It brings excess complexity in forms of steel, crafting time and relatively complex recipe. And it doesn't fit chemical theme.
I understand that recipe needs 3 ingredients, so possible engine replacements are:

• Steam. Alas it make a little sense together with solid fuel.
• 10 pipes. Nearly same amount of raw resources, first high-throughput science ingredient.
• Battery. It is intermediate for other science pack, which is not very good. Also too many production steps.
• Explosives. It's nice. Only possible downside - no iron.

Do you feel imbalances in Chemical science pack?
Are you agree that the engine is better to replace?

[ManaUser]

It's a big step. I don't know if that's really avoidable though, the recipes have to start getting complicated at some point. If chemical science was easier, it would just make production or utility seem that much harder.

What I do object to is the crafting time. I know it works out to the same as before, 12s each, but that's double the average of the others, which are 5, 6, or 7. I just don't see any good reason for that.

[leadraven]

If chemical science was easier, it would just make production or utility seem that much harder.

Exactly. And I think it will be right. Currently Production and Utility are simpler then Chemical. In relative measures, of course.

[autopoiesis]

I think the only balancing reason you would want blue science to have such a high craft time is that it makes you spend more modules and beacons on it. The first time I played factorio (before I calculated ratios), I remember wondering why I was getting so little blue science, which is certainly may not be ideal for players just getting over the complexity hump of oil and red circuit production. On the other hand, I think blue science is what first started to get me to pay attention to ratios, so it may be a calculated decision. All of that said, it may be better if blue science was 1/10s or 1/9s instead of 1/12s.

But to be honest, I actually really like where blue science is in .17. The solid fuel and red circuits make the act of balancing heavy and light oil before cracking much easier, and the red circuits isn't particularly difficult to automate after plastics. Moreover, the engine units lead the player into both automating robots and trains. Red circuits are incredibly useful to automate because they are used in a lot of advanced recipes, and solid fuel is very useful to have around, especially because new players may not think to use it to fuel their trains and burners, instead relying solely on coal.

[leadraven]

I think the only balancing reason you would want blue science to have such a high craft time is that it makes you spend more modules and beacons on it. The first time I played factorio (before I calculated ratios), I remember wondering why I was getting so little blue science, which is certainly may not be ideal for players just getting over the complexity hump of oil and red circuit production. On the other hand, I think blue science is what first started to get me to pay attention to ratios, so it may be a calculated decision. All of that said, it may be better if blue science was 1/10s or 1/9s instead of 1/12s.

But to be honest, I actually really like where blue science is in .17. The solid fuel and red circuits make the act of balancing heavy and light oil before cracking much easier, and the red circuits isn't particularly difficult to automate after plastics. Moreover, the engine units lead the player into both automating robots and trains. Red circuits are incredibly useful to automate because they are used in a lot of advanced recipes, and solid fuel is very useful to have around, especially because new players may not think to use it to fuel their trains and burners, instead relying solely on coal.

Red circuit teaches players to pay attention to ratios much better cause its wires consumption. While long crating time of Blue science only forces longer assembling line.
I agree that both Red circuit and Solid fuel are very good ingredients and are useful to automate for further progression. But engine... For me, it's participation in Utility science pack (as part of robot frame) is quite enough.