[0.15.12] Steam engine efficiently consumes 500C steam

[XKnight]

According to description maximum steam temperature for steam engine is 165C.
When engine is used with 500C steam it consumes 9 units per second and produces 900 kw.

[Ranakastrasz]

Wait, so it consumes less steam if you feed it the 500C steam? I think it is supposed to produce 900 kw.

[Klonan]

Thanks for the report,

I mean, we could fix this, in that it will waste energy, but its seems quite punishing and not fun

Generally everything in the game is lossless in this way...

So the question is, what does it add to the gameplay to fix this?
Would it lead to a greater challenge?
Would it increase the logistical fun?

On the other hand, what might it remove?
It would punish some setups,
It would reduce usefulness of steam engines
It would increase the level of investment needed for nuclear power, which might be a positive?

At the moment i am leaning towards not fixing this,
But if i see some compelling argument that it is beneficial to the game, then by all means we'll consider it

For now i will move this to balancing, because i don't want to say that its not a bug,
But i also don't want it sitting here while its undecided

[Ranakastrasz]

Wait, I don't understand.

I thought steam engines, if you fed them 500C steam, would consume the same amount of steam as the 165C steam, and thus use it less efficiently.
Wheras using a Turbine would result in the same thing, but with a much higher amount of power production.


So turbines currently are just able to consume steam faster?


What was that thing about Steam engines having a heat cap of 165C?

I don't understand.

[XKnight]

So the question is, what does it add to the gameplay to fix this?

Fixing this issue will add some consistency to the game: if you say "max temperature is 165C" this means max temperature is 165C, not 500C. In current state steam engine description contradicts its actual behavior, nothing else.

From player point of view this looks like a bug because probability of making mistake in entity description is lower than making mistake in code. So, I think that some time ago someone already made a decision (was this decision reasonable?) to add such description, but now it behaves in different way.

It doesn't matter what fix will be chosen either fix description or fix behavior, the initial purpose of this topic was to remove inconsistency between them.

[bobingabout]

Well, with max steam as it is worded right now, my assumption is that if it says max temperature 165, and consumes 0.5 fluid per tick, then it should consume 0.5 fluid per tick, and produce as much power as if the steam was 165 degrees, WASTING everything above 165.

Now, if you want to reword things and say maybe "Designed for 165 degree steam" then you could deep the current mechanic.

I dunno, I'm a bit torn between the options.

[Aeternus]

If you're not going to fix it, then simply remove the "maximum steam temperature" label. That way a steam engine is exactly what it is ingame now: A 900KW turbine, and can be used as such. That'd be the easy option.

[Lav]

I would prefer that Steam Engines wasted power when fed 500 C steam, it makes perfect sense and is IIRC how they were supposed to function from the start.

[AileTheAlien]

I would prefer that Steam Engines wasted power when fed 500 C steam, it makes perfect sense and is IIRC how they were supposed to function from the start.

I also think they should waste the energy from hot steam. Either that, or take damage from it. Steam turbines are supposed to be the high-efficiency version of steam engines, but right now they just take more resources to save on physical space. I like how steam turbines can use any temperature of steam, since they're more expensive. It fits with the rest of the things in the game, where the more expensive ones are generally just strict upgrades to the cheaper ones, and not simply a high-throughput-only version that wastes energy / items / whatever, when you try to use them for low-throughput.

[loganb]

Hello, I have feels on this topic:

I originally expected there to be some kind of advantage using both turbines and engines. Like, turbines can be used a high temp, "topping" cycle, and then engines can be used as a low temp "bottoming" cycle to maximize energy extraction.

My expectation was that, turbines & engines consume 500-1000 degree steam, and output N degree steam where N becomes lower as power generation gets higher. Then, once the temp gets low enough, turbines no longer function, but engines can still use the heat, so they make power until the steam reaches 100C and output nothing.

The current system is counter-intuitive to me and less fun, but not unreasonable.

[raidho36]

High temperature steam is basically a substitute for high pressure steam, since the engine doesn't support pressure. Steam turbine can consume steam at a very high pressures, but steam engine is limited to fairly low pressures (otherwise it explodes). So it makes best sense if steam engines would consume less steam if it's overheated to produce same amount of power, still capping at 900 kW output. Or there could be special steam reduction valve that drops steam temperature to 165 degrees but outputs more of it proportionally.

In real life the steam power comes from pressure and has little to do with temperature. Energy is extracted by making steam expand, and the greater is the pressure, the more it can expand while still providing meaningful force. Overheating steam increases its pressure, and even steam engine trains use steam overheating. However, reciprocating steam engine can only take so much torque and withstand so much speed before failing, whereas turbine can spin extremely fast and even if torque is not very big, it's still a whole lot more power. Boilers are designed to produce the right pressure for the steam engine they're feeding, but it's always possible to feed low pressure engine from high pressure source through reduction valve - steam will pre-expand through the valve, making more of it at lower pressure, and then the engine can do the rest of expansion to extract the power.

[Delwack]

I'm fine with how it works right now, provided the misleading label on the steam engine is removed. Turbines are simply 6x more efficient space wise; if you want to trade space for material, I don't see any reason why you should be able to use steam engines (or if you want to round out nuclear steam consumption designs). I guess the only thing I'd expect then is for consistency sake, a turbine to also function with/be powered effectively by 165 steam, so long as you can feed enough steam into the turbine for it to operate at capacity.

Most of the time given that you'd have to create much more complex plumping and need more space to do the steam engine setup, you'd want to use turbines naturally with your reactor (and turbine arrays can get pretty beefy as it is), the proper trade-offs and incentives are already there.

[Engimage]

I would probably look towards altering boiler's output temperature based on fuel used. This would make some nice transition and open up mid-game options.